#3: Jane Geddes
Jane Geddes has done it all and seen it all in golf. A 2-time major winner, she successfully transitioned from golf into a multi-faceted career such as getting a Law degree, working in the LPGA administration (twice), working for Vince McMahon at WWE and, more recently, CEO of the Legends Tour. We cover a range of topics with Jane, such as gender pay equity in golf, what makes the WWE so successful and the future of women’s golf.
Listen to the interview below or on Spotify, Apple, Google, Stitcher or Amazon. Enjoy!
Roberto: Jane, thanks a lot for joining us.
Jane: Yeah, it's great to be here. Thanks for having me.
Jane the golfer
Roberto: Let's start with your playing career. Jane, in 1986, you win the US Open. In 1987, you win five times, including the LPGA championship. All in all, seven of your 11 wins and both majors come in 1986 and 87. As a player, I'm always fascinated to hear what other players ascribe their best golf to. Why do you think you played so well those years? And did you spend the rest of your career trying to replicate that form?
Jane: Yeah, that's a, that's a great question. And I have to say it's the first time I've been asked the question like that because people don't necessarily go back and do that sort of detailed look at my career, but I did have an amazing 12 months between, you know, say May of 1986 and through 1987; it was an amazing stretch.
And something very unique about that time for me is that I journaled that time. I'd never journaled before, never journaled after, but for some reason I felt like, I don't know, I felt like I was in the zone and I thought, “you know, I should probably document this what I'm going through.”
And I think the one thing that I kept saying to myself was, “I wonder if everyone else that's playing well is feeling this way,” because I couldn't really grasp exactly what it was, but I had this unbelievable comfort with my swing. And that was for me the key. I was never, ever a big practicer ever. And I was one of those where I went to the range, I was going to go work on what I was going to work on. If it was five balls, if it was 500 balls, whatever it was. That was it. I actually went through a period of time in 1987, where I went 11 weeks without warming up or hitting a ball after I played. I used to have this little red weight donut, I used to call it. And I put it over my four iron and I would just swing it on the putting green. And of course it drove everybody crazy because that was my warmup. Right. And everybody's going to the driving range and everything. And here I am playing really well. And I'm standing on the side of the green swinging a donut.
It was almost insulting, you know? But I went for this 11 week period that I just didn't practice. I just had this unbelievable mental visual of my swing. And it was working really well.
And at that point, I was putting very well, which was always sort of my weakness. I always hit a lot of greens. I always hit the ball well, but I didn't consistently putt well. And during that period of time, I putted really, really well. When you're on a roll like that, and you feel like you can win every tournament that you tee it up in and literally you win events and that's really what happened.
To answer your question, did I try to replicate that for the rest of my career? Of course I did, because I took for granted that I was going to do that forever. I was, like, “US Open- I'll win five more of those now. I mean, I'm gonna win a million tournaments,” and then all of a sudden you're like, “oh, I didn't win that one.”
And you know, then it starts waning. And then you're spending time now trying to get back to that, that thing I never was able to get back to. But I feel like I was so fortunate to have had that for, you know, a good 12 to 18 months.
So it was pretty cool.
Roberto: That's great perspective. When I was sitting with Stewart Cink last week- we were just talking about whatever and he says a line: “you know, you never know what's going to just give you that floating feeling when you're out here on the Tour.” And that's it. It's just when you're playing well, it's a floating feeling. It's hard to describe.
Jane: That’s it. It’s a floating feeling. Yeah. I mean, I felt like there were times, (and I wrote about this in my journal), I literally felt like I was in a bubble. Like, I literally would be on the golf course and I remember playing in Japan I was four shots down at the turn. And Ayako Okamoto is one of the greatest players ever, and an icon in Japan and I'm now chasing her for the lead. I have a nine iron in my hand- and this is like on the 17th hole or something- and I'm literally like, “I'm going to hit this in the hole. I am, I'm just going to hit it. I know I'm going to hit it. I'm going to hit it so close. I'm gonna make this birdie and I'm gonna win this tournament.” Sure enough, I almost hit it in the hole. And I felt like I had this bubble around my body, like I was swinging inside this bubble and it was like the perfect bubble, you know. It was crazy, crazy thoughts.
And as I said, I wrote about it and I read about it. I read it now. And I'm like, Oh, if I could ever sell that stuff. I mean, I mean, good. So it's really interesting actually.
Dan: I have to say... floating feelings, winning majors, not relatable to me, but not practicing before or after the round... mucho relatable to me.
Jane: Right, right. That's like most people, right. That's right. I know.
The LPGA from an administrator’s point of view
Dan: So Jane, you went on to have a really long and successful LPGA tour career, even after the initial stint that you just described. But after wrapping up your career, you then made a hard pivot and went back to school for degrees in criminology and even went to law school. Tell us about why that decision, since you could have done anything with your career after playing. Why did you choose that route?
Jane: It’s interesting because I had always kind of in my head thought I wanted to do something after golf. I didn't want to be one of those players that just kind of dribbled along, and back when I actually retired and said, “this is going to be my last event,” I was one of the first players who actually did that. People would just go away. They would just not play anymore. You know? And I said, “no, I'm going to retire.” And I did it kind of only for myself to make sure I had that, all right, here's the clean cut; now I was done.
I had a good career but I wanted to do something else. And I had always promised myself that I would go back and finish up my undergrad. I went to Florida State and played golf and didn't graduate and ended up going out on Tour and had about a semester left. So I wanted to finish that. I wanted to complete that process.
So when I went (back) it was a good way for me to kind of restart. So when I was in school and trying to figure out what I was going to do, one thing I knew was “Jane Gettys, the golfer” could definitely open up doors. But “Jane Gettys, the golfer” with just that on my resume? I had to figure out how to hold those doors open too. Right? I needed more skills. I needed something else there. And so I had always thought about going to law school back when I was younger. It was just something I thought that I would want to do. And yeah, I had the opportunity. I wasn't doing anything. I was retired from playing. And so it was a perfect time. I went back full time with all the kids. It was like me and all the, you know, 24 year olds. And I went back full time and it was the best decision I could've made because it really gave me an amazing kind of basis and something to kind of fall back on. I knew I wasn't going to want to practice law. I was too old to really be an associate at a law firm, but I use it every day. I use it all the time. And it was something that I could really fall back on. As I sort of said, “okay, what do I want to do?”
And while I was in law school, I didn't know that I wanted to go back into golf. But I didn't know what I wanted to do. I got a phone call from the Commissioner of the LPGA, asking me, “Oh, what are you doing after you get out of law school?” And I was, like, I have no idea. And at that point it was Carolyn Bivens and she said, why don't you come intern at the LPGA and see if that's something you want to do. I said, great. And then that was it.
So then I got hired, and then Mike Whan was hired about eight months later after I got there. So I was fortunate to be able to spend the time with Mike while I was there. So it was great. Everything worked out not necessarily how I planned, because I didn't know what the plan was, but it definitely worked in a good sequence of events to get me where I am today.
Roberto: That's great. You've had two stints in administration at the LPGA Tour. In that time, Annika Sorenstam and Lorena Ochoa, both retired at the peak of their games. Do you think that set the LPGA Tour back, losing those two stars in a sport that could be anchored so heavily by stars?
Jane: I didn't. You see, for me, it's hard to say that the LPGA was set back. Because like I said, I was there when Mike Whan walked in the door and worked very closely with Mike at a time- when did he get there? 2008 or ‘09?- right when the recession hit. And the Tour was in dire straits, regardless of who was there.
I mean, it just was. The economy had crashed and the last thing companies were thinking about is, “Oh, let me see how many millions of dollars I'm going to pour into women's golf.” It wasn't happening. And so Mike, working with Mike and figuring out, how do we turn this thing around?, and how do we get it on a track that we know where we have growth and we add events and, we do what we need to do from a TV perspective?
I don't even know that we looked at those two leaving as a dent at all. I think there are so many great players and personalities, which is really what it is, right? Really great players and personalities that were on the LPGA and continue to be, that you're selling the whole package: you're selling women's golf overall.
Dan: Speaking of great personalities, we’re recording this one day after Mike Whan has been announced as the new CEO of the USGA. Now of course that still leaves us his old position, as the Commissioner of the LPGA Tour, open. So, curious to hear from you, Jane, what should be the next Commissioner’s top priorities? Can you give us the inside scoop whether or not your name is in the hat to be the successor?
Jane: Yeah, I mean, I thank you very much for even saying that. It's such a big job to fill and big shoes to fill. But I think they'll find the right person. They'll find a person who has the passion and the knowledge and the experience to take on where Mike left off. Mike has left the Tour in a really good place through a very difficult year and a half.
And not surprisingly, Mike's a really creative guy. And so, you know, getting the LPGA through that period of time this last year or so has been a challenge. But the Tour is in a really good spot. And so whoever comes along is going to have to create their own culture and their own kind of, Okay,what is the future? What do the next 10 years hold and what do the next 20 years hold and how do we get there?
So, finding the right person will be interesting, but I'm sure they'll do that. I know Mike is a part of the process and he certainly knows what it takes and he’s not going to start the USGA until the summer. So plenty of time to find the right person in that spot.
Roberto: You mentioned joining the LPGA along with Mike Whan in the aftermath of the global financial crisis. It's come such a long way. And it's in such a position of strength since then. What were the changes or evolutions that enabled that comeback?
Jane: Well, I mean, our priority was getting tournaments on the schedules at first. That was the big issue with the players. Mike spent a lot of time listening to the players. The players felt like they hadn't been heard and they were afraid. The schedule was dwindling. The purses were dwindling, which is something that had never happened on the LPGA.
And so Mike came in and created relationships. He created relationships with the players. He created relationships with the sponsors. He created relationships with the tournament owners and operators. And made sure everyone had a voice and everyone had a say in the success of the Tour and what they needed.
He spent an unbelievable amount of time on the road. He went to every single event every week. I think every one of his 11 years working for the Tour. And so those relationships are really what- there was this trust, right? He had to create now this new trust, like, “trust me, trust me that the product's going to be there. Trust me that if you invest $3 to $4 million in us, we will deliver. What do you need? We will deliver what you need.” And that was, again, as I said, that was a challenge because that was not a US project. That was tournaments all over the world, creating those relationships and putting it all together.
Going to the place where golf was hot: going to South Korea, going to Thailand, going to Japan and going back to all those places in the US where the LPGA had a popular presence. So it was a big puzzle to put together. But I think over time and as those relationships became more and more solidified, people started dipping their toe in. As Mike always says, “to get to know the LPGA is to love the LPGA.”
So his take was, “Listen, give us a chance; invest in this. Okay, we will over-deliver, I promise. And if we don't, basically you can have your money back,” in so many words. Well, he never got to that situation because they deliver, they deliver during Pro-Am days. And they deliver with the extracurricular things that make tournaments a success. And the culture on the LPGA is so different than it is, say, on the PGA Tour where it's - it’s just different. That's what makes the LPGA sell the way it does. And that's really what Mike reinforced with the sponsors and also reinforces it with the players and put it in their hands as well and said, “listen, I'm going out there and saying this about you guys.” You guys need to deliver just the way you always do. So, it was -just his view and he's a great salesman- he's a really likable guy. He's a guy you feel like you want to trust and you should trust, because he's delivered. And that always helps. So I learned a lot.
He's a good friend and he's also an amazing mentor and I learned so much by just sitting at tables with him or sitting in meetings with him, watching him work and it's a great experience.
Roberto: That's great. The word that you mentioned, you circled back to it at the end, was “trust.” There's a very successful public relations firm here in Atlanta started by Glenn Jackson and he wrote a book called Preeminence. It's just about how to build a preeminent organization. Basically the foundation is trust- that's chapter one of the book: everything is based on trust. And you can read a lot of these business books. You usually get one or two takeaways from a book, and that's the one that jumped off the page. And that's what you emphasize over and over describing how you guys rebuilt the Tour.
Jane: Yeah, it's interesting because I was watching Golf Channel this morning and they were doing a piece on Mike and talking to David Fay and a bunch of other people in the industry. Stuart Cink actually was on.
It's interesting, because it's hard to say a bad thing about Mike. I mean it's- listen, everybody has their faults, right? It's not everybody that loves Mike. But he has created this repertoire with the industry overall that where people go, “yeah, he's the right guy, you know, who else would you pick?”
And again, a lot of that is because a lot of people in the industry really trust him. So it's cool. It's fun to watch.
Dan: So in a number of sports, there's still a very wide open, unresolved debate around equal pay amongst men and women. Tennis has led the way with the grand slam pay now at parity for their four big events. But golf still has this large gap. Where do you stand on the issue and what do you think it'll take for that pay gap to close across men's and women's sports in general, but golf in particular?
Jane: Well, two parts of that. First of all, tennis was able to achieve that a long time ago for a number of reasons. But for one, and this is an important reason, they were able to play their grand slams- their majors- in the same location. So it was a difficult argument to make against women not getting equal pay.
Right. So you're playing at the US Open and Serena’s on one time and Roger's on another time and Venus's on another time. And then, you know, Nadal is on another time. I keep going right on center court. And you're selling it out every time. Who's more popular and who should be making more money? That argument was a hard argument for the US Open and all the other events to make- well, the men deserve more. No, they don't. I mean, you can't make that argument. So tennis had that going for them.
Golf on the other hand doesn't have that. Right? So the USGA, for example, they put on the Men's US Open and the Women's US Open. The Men's US Open is inherently more valuable to them than the Women's US Open. It just is for the money that they make from a corporate perspective, from TV and whatnot. So their argument is, well, they make more money. And so, now that's the real answer.
The good news is that Mike Whan has fought supporting equal money for the women in the majors for years. And now he's heading up the USGA. So it'll be interesting to see what happens. It's going to take some creative selling and creative support from the corporate side for that to happen because the money has to come from somewhere.
Right? I mean, I don't know how much the men's purses are now, but it's probably close to double maybe what the women’s are. I'm not quite sure, but yeah, so you have to make up that somehow. It'll be interesting to see how that all plays out, but we certainly have someone who is in the right seat now, which is exciting.
Roberto: Very timely conversation with you today, Jane. This is amazing.
Jane: I know. It’s perfect!
Working in Wrestling
Dan: So after quite a bit of time in the administration of the LPGA Tour, you made another career pivot in 2011, taking on a role as VP of Player Relations at the WWE- that’s wrestling for folks at home trying to figure out that moniker. It's the first time in your career where you stepped out of golf. How did stepping into a completely different arena change your views on business in sports?
Jane: Yeah. I got a call from a recruiter and how it kinda all started helps.
I got a call from a recruiter asking me about this position at this company, WWE. And I was like, you mean wrestling? I know nothing about wrestling.
She's like, stay with me, stay with me. I understand. But, you know, I think what you're doing in your current job is really relevant to what they're looking for at WWE.
And one thing led to another and there I was. So the challenge of being there for me, first of all, was I didn't know anything. I didn't know. So it'd be like getting into golf, not knowing what a par was or birdie was, or what is the driving range? Do you drive your car there? What is that? You know, so that's how I was at WWE. I mean, first day I got there, I printed out ”wrestling terms” from Wikipedia and just pasted it on my wall, because every time I went into a meeting and people were talking about wrestling, I had to write down the word, and I was, like, I had to go back and figure out what that word was. Like speaking another language.
But the interesting thing about WWE... First of all, it was an amazing experience. It's a public company, with about a thousand employees. So I went from, at that point, LPGA was small. It was maybe 60 people working there. And something I knew inside and out. Like literally being on the playing side and then going to the corporate side. It was like sometimes I didn't even have to think. It was, I just, I had lived it. Right? So it was just so, for me, very comfortable.
And so stepping out of that comfort zone and taking that risk not only in a different, like I said, in a completely different industry, but in a very big corporate situation was really the best thing I could have done. Because my perspective of working at a public company, working at a big company, working at a company that is cutting, cutting edge.
WWE- it's a huge entertainment juggernaut. Oh, by the way, it’s a little bit of wrestling that goes on. I mean, it is Vince McMahon and everything that they've done there. It's cutting edge.
I mean, there's the budget. But it's like, if you have a great idea at WWE, and you commit to doing it 110%, you feel pretty confident that whatever that cost is, it'll be covered if I'm making a difference in the industry or making a difference in what I'm supposed to be doing.
So it's a really interesting, interesting place. It has, yes, it's wrestling, and oh, by the way, it's fake. But I think what they have done in the industry, whether it's the pay-per-view or over the top network and, you know, all the different aspects of social media and a hundred people that work in social media alone there or more- the focus that they put on being cutting edge really with technology and things like that really was for me, just an amazing, amazing experience and really eye-opening and educational.
Roberto: What do you think professional golf as a business could learn from the WWE?
Jane: Well, it's funny because when I was there, Twitter had just started kind of coming into being. It started really becoming strong and they had...we'd hired at WWE this woman to come in who was trying to explain to people: you have to use social media, like, this is what it is. This is how you use it. And I remember we set up all these meetings with all the talent and, getting people in there, everybody with their Twitter accounts and what you do and what you can't do.
And, we had this whole program and I remember calling Mike Whan: “Mike, you have to hire this woman.” Like this was unbelievable. And he did, I mean like a year later, I think Amy ended up going down there and doing something with them. And it was funny because I think it was Stewart (Cink) today on the Golf Channel mentioned- Mike Whan, what a great idea he had, like putting the Twitter handles on the back of the caddy bibs. And I was like, “yes, there we go.” So, I mean, it's funny when I was watching it this morning because I thought of, you know, that, whether it came from that I don't know. But I mean the catch 22 with WWE is that they are a public company and, literally, listen, last year, forget about the last year.
But when I was there, they had the cash and I'm sure they have the cash now, but they- it's dispersed a little differently with COVID and all the things that have affected them- but they have the cash to put into being different and taking the risks.
And Vince is one of those guys who, if he has an idea and he thinks it's going to work and, I think the over the top network was a perfect example. I was there when they launched the WWE Network and people were like, “yeah, seriously?” Like people are gonna pay $9 to watch WWE network.
And Vince said, “we'll have a million subscribers.” And the first year we were, I remember sitting around staff going, Oh my God, that's a miracle. You know, first year you're easily a million, easily a million people who subscribed. I think we had like a million and a half.
And so it's like that: you have to have that risk tolerance, and the money to do it. And the right people to be able to do it. And so I think it's such a different ball game, right? I think if the LPGA pays close attention to what companies like that are doing and getting ideas from that, I think that is the kind of the best course of action, because getting out in front of things- it's very, very challenging. Let the companies like WWE and whatnot, do it on their own. So...
Dan: I still haven’t recovered from the whole “wrestling is fake” bombshell.
Jane: I know it's upsetting. Right? I know. I know. I just know it's fake, but I'll tell you what. Like I say to people, it's fake. Yes. It's all choreographed. Like who's going to win and everything. But when you jump off the top rope and you hit that pad on the ring or you hit the ground, you're still hitting the ground and you're still, like, landing on your back on something, you know? So it's not, it's not like it's... not pain-free. Put it that way. That part is not fake.
Roberto: The physics still applies. Those guys are like six-eight, 310lbs. It's like...
Jane: Fully, and they’re, I mean, they have to be fit like that and you know, and whatnot. Because the abuse that they put their body through is not, it's not nothing. I mean, it's like, unbelievable. But they're very passionate about their craft. They're really stunt people, that's really what they are. So that craft of jumping off the thing and making it look like, you know, I hate you and I'm, I'm beating the crap out of you and then, you know, then they get to the back and they're like, “Hey, you okay?” You know what I mean? Like, “I did that a little wrong” or whatever.
Roberto: How are wrestlers compensated?
Jane: So they are compensated. They have a contract that is a guarantee that they have every year. And then that guarantee- as they make money during the year, which in a typical year, say, (this one's not typical)- but in a typical year, they do Monday Night Raw, which is a live TV show. And then Smackdown. Those are the two TV shows that they do. And then three or four days or more of that week, they are doing what's a live show. So they might come to Atlanta and do a show on a Saturday night and they'll fill the arena, but it's not on TV. We call those live events. So there are the TV events and live events. Then every one of those TV events and live events have house numbers. Right? So if you fill the house, there's a certain amount of revenue that the WWE gets from that house. And a part of that pool is paid to the wrestlers.
What's paid to them is based on how well they did at that show: How many people cheered or how many people booed? Because it's all the same. So my job when I got there, which was really interesting, considering my level of knowledge, I mean, I literally had to get very good at understanding wrestling because my job was to pay the wrestlers every week.
So I would get all of the data from all the shows and all the pools of money and I'd have to watch. I was at most of the shows, the TV shows, but I'd still go through and watch the matches like quick and “okay, that guy, that was really good.” He got a lot of claps or whatever. That was very simply put. And then I would read reports from the live shows that our producers would send to me and say, “Joe Smith, he did, he was hot, that was good.” This match was average, the crowd we had. So anyway, I would pay, then I would do all the payroll for all the wrestlers every week. It was a trip. Like, me, Jane Geddes, the golfer, paying the wrestlers. I mean, clearly this was like, as I was there for a while and started understanding wrestling.
Roberto: How much does a typical wrestler make, like, you know, a hundredth on the PGA Tour money list is a million bucks and LPGA is- you can look it up, right? $300,000 or whatever. What does...
Jane: Yeah, they’re making...the lower level people are making a few hundred thousand dollars. So it's a great (job), and the top guys are making millions and millions. And it really depends on the scale and there's a whole developmental program to that. They're making a little bit less than that. So it really depends on where they are on the roster. It's about 150 people total that are involved in men and women from the developmental all the way up to the needs to be. It was something. It really was. I have to be honest, it was like a dream five years of, “what am I doing here?” So anyway, but it was good. It was a great place to be.
Senior Women’s Golf
Dan: So fast forwarding to today, you're back in the golf business. And you're now the CEO of the Legends Tour, the official senior tour of the LPGA, showcasing golfers aged 45 and over. For those who don't know much about the Legends Tour, can you tell us a little bit about who's involved? How is it structured? What's your schedule? Give us just a 101 for those who may not be familiar with the Tour.
Jane: First I'll start with saying it's a little bit of a misnomer, our name that we're a Legends Tour, because we're not really a tour.
I would love to say that we have, you know, 20 events. But I don't know that we'd have enough players who would want to play 20 events right now. So I'll go back about 20, I don't know, 20 to 25 years ago, a group of LPGA players a little bit older than me at that point started thinking about- we don't have a Champions Tour. We don't have anything like that. So what are we going to do? Let’s all put a little money in. I think they all put in $5,000 and said, let's start this thing. Let's organize. Let's be the women's senior golf association. They organized. And at that point, Jane Blalock, who used to play on Tour, already had a golf business, Jane Blalock Golf, where she was putting on golf events and doing things like that.
So Janie said, you know what? Or they asked Janie, will you kind of oversee this for us and help us? And she said, yeah. So for about, I would say 18 years or so, maybe 20, Janie did that and she would get events for the players and she basically ran the tour. And so, fast forward to now and we all were, like, can we do something more with this? At this point, most of us had retired already. We were 45-ish, a little bit older. And you know, it was like, can we do something and is there more we can do? So, one thing led to another and now fast forward a little bit to 2019.
So I went back to work for the LPGA and I was doing that and Mike Whan and I met one day and we're just catching up on life. And he said, Hey, what's up? What’s going on with the Legends Tour? And I said just kind of plugging along, not really anything to report. And he suggested that I take this role. Why don't you, once you go do it, kind of remember back to when we started and see what you can do and see if you can kind of get it going a little bit better. That was 2019. That was June of 2019. I was kind of jamming along until COVID hit. I've had probably five or six events, not tournaments, all different events.
I look at it from pro-ams to little team events too. So again, we're not really a tour, we're just a cumulation of events. I was kind of cruising along and then COVID hit and then everything kind of imploded. So I'm starting over again right now, a little bit, trying to get our pieces together for this year.
I've had some very positive support. I think we have four events on a schedule right now. I'm talking to four or five or six more groups that hopefully we'll be doing things with this year or the next. So, we're plugging along. It's, you know, it's just me. And so I'm a one person show. I do work with some of my old pals at the LPGA when I need something, or I have questions, or I need some advice, or I need a sales deck. Can you guys help me? I need something, whatever. I'd love to get it where we’ve got 10 or 15 events, where I have players who can participate in and connect a little bit more with the LPGA. And that's really the end goal. I mean, if we can get to the point where we fall under the LPGA umbrella, which is my ultimate goal, and I think it was Mike Whan’s goal as well, I think it would make sense for the LPGA to have this under its umbrella as well.
And use the players. We have 15 Hall of Famers and some of the greatest names in golf who are part of the Legends Tour. So I sell a product that people know, certainly people that followed our era know. So, that makes it fun for me, because I'm really doing stuff for my peeps, hence my friends. So...
Dan: Okay. I'll jump in with a quick follow-up. As CEO, how do you spend most of your time? What are the biggest issues that keep you up at night?
Jane: Yeah, it's really about connecting with people at events because I'm one person. But, you have to get that together. So that's really what I do. And it's really getting people to have the tools to be able to go out in their communities and sell it because it takes money, right? So it takes money to run these events. The price point is not high at all. It's the low price point. And I'll tell you what the price point is, in case anyone's listening who is interested. So the best formula that I have for it is if you put on an event and the event has a purse, say, I'm just going to make up: a number is $200,000. You double that and then minus a little bit. So all-in the cost of that event would cost about $350,000, $325,000. So to put on an event for players, compared to any other golf tour out there, is at least a million dollars less or more, or a couple million dollars (less).
So, the price is low. Again, it's about selling players who people know- I called it “Nancy Lopez era.” What keeps me up at night is getting the word out there and keeping the conversations going, because that's the hardest part. People go, “yeah, that sounds great. We'd love to have you here,” you know? All right, let's keep it going. Okay, what are you doing? What are you doing? You know, two weeks later, three weeks later, a month later? And they're all people who are doing other jobs and everything. So that's the challenge.
Roberto: You're talking to a former Legends Tour caddy. My aunt Jenny played the LPGA tour for 17 years. And she played in the Handa Cup, which is the Legends Tour version of the President's Cup, US versus the World. And my aunt's from Peru. So I was playing mini-tours and it was like early December and I had bombed out of Q school, and she said, “Hey, will you come caddy for me” down in, I think it was St. Augustine. Yeah. And I say, “I'll come caddy for you.”
Jane: That's awesome. I was going to say Jacksonville. How fun!
Roberto: Yeah. It was fun. We had a fun week.
I have a question. The USGA created a new event in 2018, the US Senior Women's Open. How involved were you in that process? And more specifically, how did it land at Chicago Golf Club? I've never been there, but it's arguably one of the most historic and exclusive clubs in America. And it just struck me as a huge “get” for the Senior Women's Open.
Jane: For probably, well, a lot of years before 2018, but I would say, five years before, Mike Davis had made a concerted effort to talk to players in my era who would be qualified. It's 50- you have to be 50 and older to play- and get them together to talk about the “what ifs.” Right? In fact, in 2014 when the men and the women actually played the US Open at the same place in Pinehurst, he invited a whole group of us there. It was the first time they'd ever done this. He invited all the past US Open winners to come and get together for just a private dinner with him. And at that time, he met with all of us and talked about the “what ifs.” And of course, you know, half of the reactions were, “well it's about time,” and my reaction, my personal reaction, knowing way more because I've been on the corporate side and the cost and all of it. Right? I was maybe a little bit more, “God, that would be great.” I get why they kind of have it... sorta. I mean, I get there's a tremendous cost there.
Now, fast forward to 2018 and they announced it's going to be at Chicago Golf Club. I didn't know too much about the Chicago Golf Club until I got there. I'll go back and the reason why I talked about the cost. I thought, you know, as it's leading up to it, I'm thinking, what are they going to do? How are you going to do this? They're going to lose so much money on this event. You know, I kept thinking: the cost of the infrastructure and the tents and the ropes and this and that. How are they going to get the sponsors? And I'm, like, worried, right?
I get there. And the USGA- they absolutely pulled it off. They created the most big-feeling, intimate, big tournament that you could ever...we could have not asked for anything better. So we knew there weren't gonna be tons of fans. We knew there wasn't gonna be a ton of corporate. There weren't gonna be corporate tents or anything. So what they did was they made it about the players. We all got these beautiful, brand new Lexuses to drive as soon as you pulled in. We had an awesome food and drink area. We had a private party on Wednesday for only the players and our guests and Mike Davis was there and they had speakers and Charlie Meacham was there. Everybody that was kind of a part of all of our lives was there to speak. And no ropes, no ropes, except for around the tees and around the greens. And we thought, are you kidding me? Like what happens when there are going to be fans? I mean, this is going to be a nightmare. That was the only thing we all said. It ended up being us coming away from that week saying “I never want to play in another event that has ropes.”
Like the feeling of teeing off and, you know, there are ropes. And then you walk down the fairway and people are walking with you and you come up to the green and they go, they go back out around the ropes. And then it was the coolest. Laura Davies said- after that I was talking to her after she won that week- she said, one of the coolest moments was walking up 18. She said, I felt like I was at a British Open. Like all the fans that were there just walking up 18 behind her. And here she comes up 18, the winner of this. It was a-mazing. And by the way, Chicago Golf Club? I've never played a golf course like that. It was the most phenomenal golf course.
They set it up perfectly for us. It was hard as could be, but they set it up perfectly. What a track! I mean, I've just never played a course like that. And with the history and clubhouse. I think every person walked away from there saying, “wow, they killed it,” and they did the same the following years. It was similar.
So, anyway, it was pretty special. It was pretty special to be a part of it that, especially that first year, so very cool. I'm happy I'm exempt. That's one thing I got going for me.
Roberto: That's a great story and good on the USGA. I just thought for it to have the inaugural at a venue like that, and it seemed like a home run. My aunt played in it. Jenny played and so I followed along and that's just a big win that maybe didn't get as much publicity, but that was really well done. It’s an awesome story.
Jane: Yeah. What a place, what a place that was, so, yeah, it was cool. Very cool. And it was very sincere. It was very sincere about it- the USGA- which made it even better. You know, they were really proud. Mike Davis in particular was. He wanted to know how we felt, you know, and the whole week, “how was it, how is it?” That never happens at the Open; there it's like the players are doing their thing. It's like you don't even see Mike. So it was really cool that they were really an integral part of it and wanting to make it great. So it was fun.
Tap-ins: Short questions about Golf and Business
Roberto: Well, Jane, this has been a great conversation. We are going to wrap up with a few short, easy questions. This is the easy part. And Dan is going to lead the way. This segment is called Tap-ins. So Dan leads the charge on golf questions. We kind of flip roles and I lead the charge generally on business questions. So Dan, take it away.
Dan: All right. Jane, favorite golf course?
Jane: Chicago Golf Club.
Dan: Had a feeling you were going to say that.
Jane: I know- that was top of mind, right? That was perfect.
Dan: Favorite 19th hole?
Jane: Oh, I don't know the name of it. Oh God. It's not really a 19th hole, but I would say at St. Andrew's, there's, like, an amazing bar, right off the thing that's right off the 18th hole. I can't think of the name of it. You have to fill in the blank for me on that one. It's owned by Americans too!
Roberto: Is it The Dunvegan?
Jane: I think it is.
Roberto: I've never been, I've heard...I think it's called The Dunvegan. I think a bunch of the guys who own Pebble Beach bought it or something.
Jane: Yeah. There's nothing bad about being at St. Andrew...that's a whole other story.
Dan: Which LPGA player, former or current, would make the best wrestler?
Jane: Oh, Christina Kim.
Roberto: That's amazing.
Jane: She’d kill me. No, she’d probably think that’s actually funny, I think. Excellent.
Dan: What’s harder: Q School or law school?
Jane: Q school. It's the finality of it. And after missing it once, I know that.
Dan: Yeah, if you miss the one law school exam, you can still get bailed out. Q School seems more fatal. What's more important to have in a pro golf tour, marketable players or loyal sponsors?
Jane: Loyal sponsors.
Dan: When will we ever see a mixed gender event on the official schedules of the PGA and LPGA Tour?
Jane: I hope soon. That was the best event. We used to play in the JC Penny mixed team. And it was the best event. Players on both tours. We loved that event at the end of the year. So I hope they do it soon. It was great for the fans. Great for the players. I really hope they figure out how to get that back.
Dan: I caught a bit of the Victoria Open a couple of years ago. That was a really fun event to see, for example. Right now that's a model that seems to work too.
Jane: Yup. Yup.
Dan: That's it for Tap-ins, Roberto. Over to you for our business questions.
Roberto: Okay, Jane. This section is called Buy or Sell. Buy or sell: Tokyo Olympics?
Jane: Knowing I've spent a lot of time in Japan, I gotta say, buy.
Roberto: Buy or sell, Connecticut?
Jane: Buy. If you don't have to pay the taxes.
Roberto: Buy or sell: children learning to play the piano?
Jane: Oh, buy.
Roberto: Buy or sell: professional golf jumps to a streaming service in the next five years?
Jane: Oh, buy. Absolutely.
Roberto: Buy or sell: the real estate market in Tampa in the $5 to 17 million dollar range?
Jane: Buy! It is crazy right now! I'm not buying it, but I mean, yeah, somebody is buying it.
Roberto: Are you selling it?
Jane: I am selling real estate. Yeah. I’ve had my real estate license for quite a while actually. In Connecticut and here. So, I’m doing it on the side.
Roberto: I peeked at some of your listings and I’ve got to start playing better if I'm going to be one of your clients.
Jane: $29 million dollars, right? Derek Jeter's house that Tom Brady is living in right now is on the market here. $29 million.
Roberto: I’ve got to pop down and see Tom and Giselle, you know, check out the radio station.
Jane: Oh, yeah, check it out. I'll show you around it. I'll take you for a tour.
Roberto: Okay.
Dan: Could be our next studio for all we know.
Roberto: Is there studio space there?
Jane: There's a space for everything else. I mean, I'm sure there is. Who knows?
Roberto: Buy or sell: Bitcoin?
Jane: Buy.
Roberto: Buy or sell: self-driving cars?
Jane: Buy. I have a Tesla and I was self-driving it this last weekend from Vero Beach back to Tampa. Unbelievable.
Roberto: Wow. Strong endorsement.
Jane: No lie. It was really crazy. First time I ever used it and it works.
Roberto: Buy or sell: Getting a law degree in 2021?
Jane: Buy.
Roberto: And that is the last Buy or Sell. Jane, thanks so much.
Jane: Did I have any “sells,” by the way? I was very positive on all of them.
Roberto: Yeah. Well, you're trying to sell the real estate, so it depends how you look at it.
Jane: Oh, true. Right, right.
Takeaways:
Dan: So Roberto, we just wrapped up with Jane. Great conversation. Lots of topics covered. Where should we start?
Roberto: Gosh, that's a good question. First of all, Jane has incredible energy. That's where I would start. I just don't feel like she has many bad days, you know. We all know those people and those are the best people to have in your life. And I don't feel like Jane has a lot of bad days. But second, just a total self-starter. Professional golfers: there's no team, there's no coach. Like you totally have to be self-motivated, but she takes it to another extreme, I think. She totally creates her own momentum. And to retire in her mid forties or early forties and saddle up at law school, pretty strong move.
And then too, just launch out and work for the WWE and then what she's doing now. She's a one-woman band at the Legends Tour.
Dan: Yeah. Thet lady can hussle, and it does not stop, like you said. The fact that at this point in her career, she has channeled this whole CEO-as-chief-salesperson mentality. I think that's out of necessity given that she is at a one-person show, but hearing how she describes how she modeled some of that after Mike Whan when he was at the helm of the LPGA as a recipe of success really stood out. From a strategy perspective, I look at that from a business perspective and a business decision and how she, as the CEO of the Legends Tour, has set the tone for what she thinks the competitive advantage of her Tour needs to be, which is building relationships.
And she clearly has owned that as the fabric of her Tour through and through. So it’s very impressive how she has made that a reality for the Legends Tour and continues to do that with great high energy even today.
Roberto: No doubt. And hey, how about Mike Whan? Went to every tournament for 11 years. I mean, get you some of that.
Dan: Unreal.
Roberto: You want to talk about having some credibility and being able to walk into a room with players or sponsors and you want to talk about walking the walk? That's incredible. Seriously, incredible.
Dan: Walking the walk, flying the flights, whatever you want to call it. That's a lot of time on the road, but you know, massively impressive and hats off to him.
Roberto: Yeah. And something tells me the LPGA has one less Citation jet than the PGA Tour does. So I think there's probably a platinum bag tag on his backpack that Mr. Monahan does not have.
Dan: That's right. What else stood out to you, Roberto?
Roberto: Really, the role of experience is another thing I kept thinking about. So how do you balance experience versus talent, or talent and drive? My personal opinion is talent and drive are going to beat experience every time. And her story kind of bears that out. You know, her best years on the Tour were the early part of her career, which was what? ‘86, ‘87? Those were her first two or three years on Tour. And then even my experience, how I'm a lot more experienced than Matt Wolff and Joaquin Neimann and all these guys. But they cleaned my clock every week because they have more talent at 22 years old. I think it's kind of encouraging in a way, because it shows you what Jane's done is if you have talent, and you have drive, and you're willing to get out there and work, you can change lanes, you can do different things.
Dan: I mean, you wanna talk about experience or lack of experience? My mind is still blown from the whole showing up at the course, not much warm up, and no practice after the round. And playing the best golf of her career just because she was journaling. That just is amazing to me. I mean, I don't warm up before my rounds either, but I have very different expectations about what my game can do. I don't know if you were watching much golf or at this time you probably were. And I was watching this tournament- like the 1999 Greater Milwaukee Open. The only reason that you did it, cause Carlos Franco was playing and he was in the hunt. And I had seen him growing up in Brazil a little bit. He shows up at the course 20 minutes before his tee time, leading the tournament, a reporter goes, “Hey, Carlos, you going to hit some balls?” “No.” “You going to hit some putts?” “No.” And the reporter, you were just looking at him confused, like, “this guy is doing it wrong.” But here goes Franco, first tee, nice fluid, long swing, stripes it down the middle of the fairway and goes on to win the tournament by a million. So I don't know if he was journaling, but he certainly was subscribing to some part of what Jane had to say there.
Roberto: Totally. Golf is full of those stories. It's such a game of opposites. It's just total, you know, it just totally gets your brain in a pretzel because if you want to hit it left, swing right. If you want to chip it low, swing up. There's all- everything- is an opposite in golf. And I hear those stories all the time. I heard one last week that Lucas Glover's agent told some of the young guys. That when Lucas won the Open at Bethpage, that the previous weeks they were just fishing together at Frederica. So they'd go fishing all day and then Lucas would play nine holes in the afternoon.
And Duval's old caddy said that at Mercedes at Kapalua, he was out there walking the course on a Tuesday afternoon and David wasn't even there yet. And he ran into Davis Love and he goes, “Hey, where's David?” He's like, “Oh, he's skiing in Idaho. He's flying in tonight.” And Davis Love just shook his head and said, “We have no chance.” This is like the peak Duval. He flew in Wednesday morning or something from skiing. And he won the tournament by like eight shots at Kapalua. So there are a lot of stories that bear that out.
Dan: Incredible. I mean all about mindset, I guess. What about...let's talk about the wrestling bit. What did you take away from the wrestling chapter in her career? What stood out to you there? Cause that was the most fascinating part of doing research on Jane that stood out for me that we had to cover.
Roberto: Yeah. I mean, first of all, the confidence that you could walk into that office on day one and not know anything about wrestling and take a significant role in that organization. So two things: kudos to them [WWE] for thinking outside the box hiring-wise; and then she had to have a lot of confidence to pull that off. And then two: man, just how that is a pure entertainment product and what the Tour can learn from that. You know, I think competitive integrity is important, but sometimes we should think of the Tour as a TV show first and maybe a golf Tour second. And I think our product might get better. I dunno. What do you think?
Dan: No, I agree. I mean, we all know sports is entertainment first. The WWE really dials that in and the fact that she was able to take that, embrace that, and then bring some of that back into golf was interesting. I mean, she talked about how the LPGA Tour was able to channel-in the social media better and really make a presence and more of an interpersonal connection with its sponsors and its constituents that way. I thought it sounds sort of obvious to say now, but you can see how she describes it- how it was not obvious at the time. So I really admired how she was able to take that in WWE and make it land in golf.
I mean, we heard this from Harry Arnett too. How he talked about Callaway Golf and how they made a similar pivot to talk about their brand in a very different way. So I think it was super interesting.
Roberto: Yeah. I just think if you sat around at the Tour and said, “Hey, we have the Zurich team event, but what are some other great TV shows we could put on?” I've been thinking about this one for years and I was talking about it the other week, on Sunday, playing. They should let Tours buy mulligans coming down the stretch on Sunday. So, if you're in second place and you rinse one on 17, would you pay 300 grand for a mulligan? Would you pay half a million bucks for a mulligan if you had a chance to win? What if you're in 30th place and you three-putt 17, you'd have to run the numbers and be like, Hey, I'll pay 15,000 bucks to hit that five footer again. I think it'd be a great TV show. It would be a little complicated, but I think there's something there.
Dan: You're driving the Vegas oddsmakers crazy with that stuff. You're going to just absolutely throw off the system with that. But I like it. I like the chaos. I love it, but it would definitely make it entertaining. No questions.
Roberto: And Tour players are overconfident and they're gamblers. I think it'd be amazing. The Tour would make money because all these players would overspend on mulligans. A hundred percent would. Even like Friday afternoon, you'd have a guy about to miss the cut by one. And he would pay a hundred grand for a mulligan just assuming that he was going to climb the board on the weekend if he could just make the cut. They should give all the money to charity or something, but we need to really hash this out, Dan.
Dan: I like it. I like it. Put some cash in the staff bags and we got something going.
Roberto: Exactly. You have to write a check at the beginning of the week until you run out of money.
Dan: I love it. Well, good stuff.
Roberto: Yeah. It was a great conversation. Really enjoyed having Jane on. She was very generous with her time and we'll catch you next time on The Course Record Show.
