#6: Chad Parker
Chad Parker is General Manager and COO at East Lake Golf Club in Atlanta, GA. In this episode, we talk to Chad about the operations of a golf club, hosting a PGA Tour event, pro shop merchandising, philanthropy, barbeque and more.
Read the interview below or listen on Spotify, Apple, Google, Stitcher or Amazon. Enjoy!
Roberto: We're joined on The Course Record Show by Chad Parker, the COO and General Manager at Eastlake Golf Club. Chad, you wear many hats at East Lake, the historic golf course in Atlanta. What are the business decisions that you're asked to make in your position?
Chad: Well, before we jump in, thanks to you both for having me on the show, I'm excited to talk to you guys about the business of golf.
It's a passion of mine. I mean, my background is professional golf management. So yes, I did major in golf management. That is a thing- not at Tech, but at Mississippi State. And one of the PGM schools that the PGA of America runs. So, to answer your question, most of my day these days revolves around staff and making sure the staff have what they need to do their jobs, answer all the questions that surround that from an agronomy standpoint, from a food and beverage standpoint, from a golf operation standpoint.
And then just to make things more interesting for us, we have a PGA Tour event. We have a made for TV college event. We have an invitational event, Roberto, that you've been at. And then we own a nine-hole public golf course. So, all of those things keep me pretty busy.
Roberto: Sounds like it.
Dan: So take us inside East Lake a little bit. How is East Lake structured from a membership perspective?
Chad: Well, taking a step backwards. East Lake is the oldest 18 hole golf course in the city of Atlanta and had a lot of great years from 1904 to really the late sixties. In the late sixties, the club kind of experienced a decline or a gradual decline.
And it decided to sell off one of its golf courses and re-form into two different entities. The Atlanta Athletic Club was the original holder of the property. And they moved out to Johns Creek. And then a group of members stayed and re-formed East Lake Country Club. And that was in the early seventies.
So fast forward to the late eighties, early nineties. The Club was really experiencing a lot of problems in membership and dwindled to almost nothing. And a local developer, Tom Cousins, came in and utilized the club to help drive the revitalization of the East Lake community.
So the membership is a mixture of those who were members before- what we would call a legacy member. So the members from somewhere before ‘95, to today we have a mixture of corporate members and some new individual members. So it's a really unique mix in that regard. But it's working and it's just a statement to the vision of Tom Cousins that is working.
Roberto: That's really cool. Something that keeps coming up in our conversations around the business of golf and facilities specifically is utilization. Like how do you get people on and off a golf course? How do you keep a course busy? What's the right level? I think East Lake is unique, as you said, because that corporate membership piece is a real Monday through Friday, Monday through Thursday time crowd, and then your individual members might play more on the weekend. Is that correct? And is that, has that been a really good ying and yang for you guys? Or how do you guys manage that?
Chad: No, I think it's correct. I mean, certainly pre-COVID it was correct. We'll see what happens in 2022 and beyond once corporate America starts getting back into rhythm, whatever that means. I personally think that corporate travel especially is going to be pretty dramatically impacted by COVID. With the advent of video conferencing, you might go see a client four times a year versus eight, or some sort of multiplier that way.
And then if you look at how that impacts our business, that's four less hotel rooms, that's four less dinners, four less rounds of golf. Multiply that across the entire spectrum of the hospitality industry. And I think that's a very real thing that could happen. We'll see. So far we've seen corporate America be pretty guarded in terms of how they're spending money.
But Roberto, to your point, that is the model that we see that works. I mean the corporate play during the week and more individual play on the weekends and Fridays.
Roberto: That's great.
Dan: It's funny you say that about the sort of reigning in of the belt on some of the corporate outings and corporate memberships. I work in the tech sector. There's not a lot of golf played is my issue. What's your outlook on corporate golf post-COVID, travel returning, et cetera? Is this a headwind or tailwind for corporate memberships?
Chad: Well, I essentially... it depends on the company because for us without naming names, I mean, we have a very wide spectrum of corporate members. And so one of the most interesting things for me is how do you interact with all different kinds of people from manufacturing to financial services, to professional services, to law firms big and small, family owned, publicly traded, privately held. I mean, we're all over the spectrum.
And so how they use it really varies. But I would say in general I don't think there's any better way to get to know someone than playing golf. I was listening to your podcasts with Joe Ogilvy and he was making that point about the AT&T program. And just the opportunity that golf gives you to learn about people.
And there's no other activity that I'm aware of that even comes close to that. And so, I guess it depends, Dan, on me, to answer your question. It depends on the industry and how much is it person to person versus business to business? And what we see is a lot of person to person, either making sure you keep the people as clients, or you get them to come over to your firm or to whatever it is that you're trying to accomplish through the round of golf. But I mean, I know we've all played golf with a lot of people and you learn a lot about people on the golf course that you would just never learn in any other activity that I'm familiar with.
Roberto: That was Dan indirectly lobbying his boss to let them do a little more business development on the golf course. Well played Dan, well-played.
Chad: Happy to send a letter of recommendation to outline those steps if you need them.
Roberto: All right. Sounds good. Chad, what are the most passionate issues for your membership?
Chad: I think just like anybody else, Roberto, people you'd like to be known. And I think that, the thing that we try to do at East Lake is in a very kind of reserved way to know the members and know what they like. And then when they come in through the gate, I mean to remind ourselves on the other side of the curtain, so to speak, that the people, when they get there, they have all of life’s pressures and stresses like the rest of us have. But when they come out to the club, they're hoping to get away from that. And so I think that you always, if you work in the industry or any hospitality industry, for that matter, you have to keep that as a mindset that they're coming there to relax. And so, anything that you can do that will make them feel more relaxed and make them feel special, I mean, that’s what we try to do. So I think that is the number one thing that we strive for. And having a small membership and having a staff that doesn't turn over a lot is kind of the secret sauce for us.
Roberto: That's cool. It's interesting to hear you jump right to hospitality because Brian Ferris said the same thing. We were trying to talk business of golf and operations and his mind just went straight to: how do I take care of my customers? And you guys have similar tracts. It was really cool to hear that.
Dan: Yeah. So Chad, with all your titles and all the influence you have at East Lake, how much of your job do you see as leading the Club versus serving the membership?
Chad: Well, I would say that it's 95% serving the membership and you can't do that well without leading. And so the way that I kind of view my role is if we have a situation where we fail or we have an employee who's not able to live up to the standard that we're looking for, the way that I look about it is how did I fail that employee? What training could I've given that person?
What support, what fill in the blank, whatever it is. Did the right kind of product that we have on the menu not come in and we didn't tell them. And they had to tell the member that we didn't have it available. Things like that, basic blocking and tackling. No, that is the role of management.
And it's not, to have a bunch of letters behind your name. I mean, my role is to make sure that people who are serving the members have what they need to serve the members and make sure they feel like they're supported. And so, if that doesn't happen, then leading the Club does not happen.
On the flip side of that, you have young managers who are looking to grow the business and they want to learn the quote-unquote “business side of things.” And so you have to spend time on the financials and all the things that others may identify as the business of golf.
That's kind of secondary to me. That's an outcome of what we're creating by the interactions and the environment that we create. So you do have to understand it because you have to go to Board meetings and committee meetings, and they're going to ask questions and you need to understand it, but I don't focus a lot on that.
I think that those numbers that you see on a piece of paper are made up of thousands of interactions between staff, between people. I mean that's pure and simple, the only way to look at it. And so, if you're not doing those kinds of things- and I'm not saying I'm the best at it- and I always tried to be better at it, but that is how I think about it. And I think that's what makes us different and why we've had some success with that.
Dan: I was going to follow up. What's the hardest part of the job in terms of serving the membership? Is it like food and beverage or keeping the golf course in shape? What's the thing that keeps you up at night the most in that regard?
Chad: Depends on the time of the year. I mean, when you're aerating greens, that's the hardest part of the job, is why do we have to do it? And why are we taking away my golf course? And, from a pure business standpoint, the food and beverage operation is the most difficult because let's say that you have a club of, even if you have 500 members, and you have a food and beverage operation that has to operate at a certain level, a minimum level. No restaurant would ever open its doors if it only had access to 500 people. Just wouldn't do it. And so you're already starting from the very beginning, kind of behind the eight ball. And so I think that you have to educate people that make those kinds of decisions and say, listen, if you want to have a certain level of a food and beverage operation, it's not going to make money.
You hope that you can break even. And that's the goal for most private clubs. I think anyone you could talk to that works at a golf facility would tell you the same thing. And if it makes a little bit, that's great. So, from a pure profitability standpoint, the food and beverage is the most difficult. But the other parts can be difficult depending on what situation you find yourself in.
Dan: The access to 500 members is really tough for any restaurant outside of the country club golf club industry. But some clubs seem to have succeeded in at least making it work somehow? What do you think sets those two groups apart?
Chad: Well, I think you first take the demographics of the club and how far away do the people live from the club? How often do they come to the club is a key factor in that. How far are you going to drive? How do people use the club? We’ve seen a pretty good resurgence in our food and beverage operation with more individual members, especially on the weekends. They'll come in and play golf and maybe have a sandwich before they play. And certainly have lunch afterwards. Have a beer at the turn or whatever. Those add up, the Powerades on the beverage carts- those add up.
And so I think that you just have to watch and see how people are using the club and understand that some clubs may offer a fine dining option and that is a home run for them. And others offer that and it is a complete dud. For us, we have most of our members, let's say they're outside 10 miles to the club. How many restaurants are they going to drive by to get to us that do wonderful things? Have well-known chefs, farm-to-table concepts, you name it, whatever the hottest thing is, things that we just can't keep up with.
And how do you compete with that? And, can you be okay with your ego not doing that? I think that's what really is the separating factor in clubs, is kind of an ego. Does your Board, or have someone on your Board, who wants to have a wine program who wants to have all this, all these things, whatever, and the members just don't want it.
Those are the ones that don't make it probably versus the club that feel the members out and say, Hey, it's that they want a more relaxed vibe. They don't want to come home and have a coat on or whatever. And then kind of tailor their offering to that. And their staffing, to be honest, I mean, because it takes a certain level employee to execute those fine dining options.
And if you're doing 10 covers on a Friday night versus if you could go to Bones and they're doing 300, the match doesn't work. And so if you have a menu, a fine dining menu that has, let's say 15 options on it, you have to think about it and then take a step back. Now you have to order because all 15 have to be ready. If all 15 of your covers want a 10 ounce filet, you have to have 15 filets. What do you do with those 10 ounce filets if they don't sell? Well, let's decide you want to run a lobster special and that doesn’t sell. What do you do with that? Completely, you just eat that food cost, which is extravagant.
And so the margins are gone. And so that is what drives whether or not a food and beverage makes it or not. How do you cross-utilize ingredients? How do you create a menu that you can be profitable on, but it also be what the members want? That's the secret.
Dan: So you think beverage carts carry Powerades? I had no idea. I might go for a very different side of the beverage cart most of the time.
Chad: Yeah, we athletes, we're drinking Powerades and water and others may be drinking White Claws and seltzers and beers and whatever and transfusions.
Roberto: Every club, including mine, is one of those clubs. It's like, dude, our per capita Tito's consumption is the highest in America, the beverage cart girl told me. It's like, ah, that's probably not true. I'm not going to fact check you on it, but I'll take your word for it.
Chad: Yeah. I think it just comes down to listening and it goes back to what we were talking about earlier, listening to your customers and if your customers don't want that, why are you forcing it? Because if you look at behind the scenes and the line I mean... I love to cook and I love food. I don't have any training in running the food and beverage operation other than just going down to the kitchen, which I've done a lot since I was promoted GM. And just talking to the guys in the kitchen, going into walk-in freezers, going into dry storage, looking at ingredients. Why do we do this? How are we ordering that? And just asking questions and I've learned way more doing that.
And then, on a busy day in the grill, I'll go work as an expo or next to the expo, and just watch the food come out. The best indicator of your quality? Just go to the place where the servers dump the plates. I do that weekly. Why, why does it? Why is knowing why we are having this come back? Do we have too much of it or is it not good? And if you have a problem, you go talk to them and say, Hey, I noticed you ordered the blah, blah, blah, mahi mahi sandwich. You didn't eat but about half of it, why? Oh, I just wasn't that hungry or, yeah, it wasn't that good. So if you have a relationship with a member, you can just ask them. So you go to the chef and say, Hey, the mahi mahi sandwich is terrible. That's coming off the menu. We've had three people tell us that. So scrap it; we're not good at it. So take it off. Let's do the things that we're good at.
Roberto: That's smart. The other thing you said about staffing, I think, that was interesting. I was fortunate to get invited to Ohoopee Match Club in south Georgia, and they do about a million things right. But one of the things I thought was really smart, they go for the casual vibe and it's very laid back. It's very awesome. But they realized, Hey, we're an hour from really any population center. So if we're going to offer elevated dining experience, it's going to be really difficult to staff that. So they basically do family style dining. The food is unbelievable, but they bring out these big trays or big bowls of food.
So we had eight in our party, so they put some big dishes out and you share, and you can staff that party of eight with one server and the bar is six feet away from you. And you can just casually be like, Hey, John, can I get one more drink? And he'll walk it over. Incredibly smart way to create a great dining experience with limited staffing.
And I was like, wow, that's really, really cool. And that was a great experience I thought.
Chad: Yeah, I'm looking forward to going down and we've got a couple of members that are members down there. I haven't made it down yet, but I think that the other thing to remember, if you work in the business, that is to learn from your peers because your members, at least, members that are members at Ohoopee and at East Lake and other places they go to, they go to other places a lot and they see how things are done. And they liked certain things that are done and they don't like certain things that are done. And you try to create the environment where you capture all the best of that. And there's some principles that are non-negotiable, but I think you just continue to learn. But it really comes down to listening to your customers, just like any other business.
And you gotta be willing to swallow your ego and say, Hey, you know what? I thought we would be good at doing a mahi mahi sandwich, but we're not. So we're not gonna try that anymore. We're gonna go back to the club sandwich and whatever.
Roberto: Something tells me the mahi mahi was a giant failure on your menu. You keep going back to that. True or false?
Chad: Number one seller.
Roberto: Really?!
Chad: Number one seller.
Roberto: Nice, good to know.
Chad: We're doing well with the mahi mahi sandwich, uh, fish sandwich. And you can get it with salad or whatever. People love it. I was a naysayer, so I'm a little bit, I lost that battle. But others on our table tried it and it proved to be a home run. So I was wrong.
Roberto: You mentioned interaction between people. East Lake has been a steadfast supporter of their caddies. What do you see as the main purpose of that program and how do you recruit those caddies?
Chad: Well, I mean, for us and you, you were, I think I heard the question, you're talking about our caddy program and our caddies from the very first day that we opened have been employees of the club and they're not independent contractors.
And so they're definitely part of the team. They're invited to the Christmas party. They participate in the profit share if they work the minimum number of hours. They’re employees and they’re just like I am. And they're just as important as anyone else. And so, I think that to have a successful caddy program, the membership and the club have to be committed to a caddy program.
You can’t kind of be in the middle- make it optional or have all these other variables that you hear about. And so for us, it's not optional. If you play golf at East Lake, you're taking the caddy. If you need a golf cart because of your physical condition, and it's dry enough, then that's fine. Well, you can ride in the golf cart, but the caddie is still carrying your bag. And so there is absolutely zero discussion on that. And so that’s just something we've always been known for. And I think that's why we have a good group of about a hundred caddies on staff. And a lot of regulars that work every day and they make a pretty good living. And it's just a good relationship that we know we need each other.
Roberto: That's cool. I think the legacy of your caddy program is starting to spread its roots because I just know two of my roommates in college at Georgia Tech caddied at East Lake, not full time, but here and there, and helped for events.
And then we have a mutual friend, Jonathan Baker, who's gone on to great success and works some with the Masters. He caddied at East Lake. And he's like your head golf professional, Drew, who started as a caddy, if I'm not mistaken. Is that right?
Chad: Yeah, that’s right.
Roberto: Yeah, it's really cool to meet people that had that stage of their life, even if they continued on to different things. It's really cool.
Chad: Yeah. Well, I think if you look at the Northeast and the Midwest, I mean, that is just a way of life, right? It's just not that common in the south. But you know, for us, if a guy wants to work full-time as a caddy and that's what he wants to do and have that level and that lifestyle, that's fine.
But if a guy or a gal wants to be a college student and make a little extra money here and there, that's fine. And then they go off and do their own thing. So, I think that it's a pretty neat environment and we have guys who come and go as you could imagine.
Roberto: Yeah. How does hosting the Tour Championship affect your operations and the P&L?
Chad: Well, I generally tell people the Tour Championship for me is about 20% of my annual hours. And so there's not a week that goes by that I don't spend time on the Tour Championship even in the coldest weeks of December to today, in terms of planning and the relationship that we have with the PGA Tour. Having an event every year is a lot different than having one that comes every 10 years. And so, for us, the benefit of hosting the Tour Championship to our operation is very positive.
And you just start with reputation. You're getting to come play at the golf course where the Tour Championship is held every year. And people remember things that happened at the Tour Championship. And they remember shots that were hit, outcomes that were had.
The fact that we held the first Payne Stewart award ceremony on the old 18th green. And now that award has become such a neat thing on the PGA Tour. Highly sought after by the players. It’s kind of a lifetime achievement award, if you will. And so there's all these layers to it, Roberto, and it's for us for a lot of years. It wasn't so much about how the club did; it is about how our Foundations did and our charity work did.
And that's still the case today. Candidly speaking, if we break even on the Tour Championship from the Club's point of view, we're happy with that. As long as the charitable partners are made whole and continue to do the work that they're doing. We give the Tour a lot of credit. Last year, even during COVID, the Tour kind of met the obligation that the charities had in their budgets with no fans, which is a huge accomplishment and just a statement of partnership that we have with the Tour.
Dan: Wow. That's really great.
Chad: Yeah.
Dan: Shifting gears a bit to merchandising. I know East Lake has won many awards and been committed to its merchandising and its pro shop, et cetera. I cut my teeth as a consultant in the retail business. I'm very intrigued by the topic generally. What would you say are some of the key drivers for success in merchandising at a golf club?
Chad: I think it starts with the vendors. And again, back to relationships you have with the vendors. Our philosophy- and I used to be when I was the head golf professional for almost 15 years- that was my primary role. It was the merchandising because that's a huge part of our operation- the retail piece.
In fact, you'd be interested to know that the first two Tour Championships that we hosted in ‘98 and 2000, the club actually owned the merchandise. And so we staffed it, we bought it, we built the tent, we got the fixtures, figured out the POS, all that. I think that we did so well, Roberto, the Tour kind of looked down and was like, listen, that may be something that we want to take over. I had a suitcase full of samples in ‘98 and I just called the sales guy at the PGA Tour. And I was like, Hey, can you give me a list of everyone who's bought hospitality? I'm going to go see him. And I'd go walk into the CEO's offices with my own personal suitcase filled with fairway and green samples.
Before you know it, they'd ordered 500 shirts for their clients or whatever. And I mean, I did that for the first two years and we absolutely killed it on corporate sales. Just getting out there and getting after it. So I learned a ton in those two years.
And it was a huge risk for us because what happens if you have one day of rain, if you take 25% of your sales out of a product that you purchased for the week, then you’re sunk. Luckily we didn't have that happen. The worst thing that we had happen is we locked ourselves out of the merchandise tent, and that was a story in itself. But one of our more slender cart guys had to climb through the HVAC duct to open the door from the inside. And that really happened in 2000.
So, back to your question, I mean, it's a huge part of what we do, and I think it starts with the vendors and the relationship you have with them. And then just picking good products. I mean, picking what people want to buy and wear and kind of staying on top of it.
We do surveys fairly often. Still the number one combination is a guy wearing khaki shorts and a solid colored shirt. Maybe the belt's a little different than it used to be. That's what most people still wear. But you know, there are guys who like other things, and so we try to track those and make sure that we stock accordingly.
Dan: So say more about that. How do you get a sense for what people want to wear? Because presumably most clubs have the same number of vendors, the same names. Right? Right. Maybe they don’t have as good relationships as what you've invested in. I understand that. But how do you make those calls on what to carry? How do you get the pulse of your membership and your guests in that sense to make the right choices and cut the right invoices?
Chad: Well, I think that like most PGA golf professionals, you go to Orlando every year in January, and that's the big PGA show and that's where you buy your fall (merchandise). But you also get a chance to kind of get the sense of how companies are doing and you get to interact with the movers and shakers within those companies.
And really what we do is just walk up and down the aisles. We break ourselves up into teams and we'll go look at booths that are busy versus not busy. And if the groups are busy, they will make a note of that and we'll invite that brand to come see us. If we can get an appointment at the show, which we don't do a lot of buying at the show, we usually see the vendors in house. But that's one way to see what is up and coming.
And then if you do bring in a new vendor, you bring in enough where you can get a true representation. I think one mistake that most people make is they'll say, okay, I want to try vendor A. And we think they may be hot and I'll bring in 48 pieces and put it on the four-way in the corner. And then at the end of two months you've sold nothing. So if you're going to bring somebody in and give them a fighting chance, bring in as much as you can to represent the brand, the story the brand is trying to tell. And if it doesn't sell for us- if we bring you in one season and you don't sell out- it's very likely that you're not coming back the next season.
And we'll just tell you that. So listen, you did... the key indicator for us is sell-through. If you don’t sell through, you don't come back.
But you know, so if you have, if you're buying right, and you give the vendor a chance to succeed, you put them front and center, you educate the staff, you have staff wearing the product. They understand how it fits. They understand how it performs when you’re playing. If you do all of those things and it still doesn't sell, then either you've just made a grave error in terms of what you think people may want. Or the product doesn't live up to the hype or whatever, but you know, for us, it's sell-through “what have you done for me lately?” We certainly don't have that problem when we stock a Peter Millar or something like that. But we've had problems with vendors I'm not going to name. We just didn't sell. So we stopped doing business with them.
Roberto: That's interesting. Very interesting. That's cool. Chad, switching gears a little bit. East Lake's motto is “golf with a purpose.” And as a spinoff to East Lake is an organization called Purpose Built Communities. I'll let you give the details, but it's basically an organization that consults other cities and other communities that are trying to follow East Lake's playbook and revitalize a neighborhood through golf or otherwise. Could you tell us a little bit more about that? And then whether you're involved?
Chad: Yeah. I think that Purpose Built Communities were created just because there was so much interest in what was going on at East Lake. And so, just to summarize real fast- the tenets of the East Lake model is a defined area, our neighborhood, in our case it was East Lake Meadows. We focused on cradle to college education. Community wellness. There are some key components and you want to have a quarterback, community quarterback.
And I'm sure the folks that at Purpose Built, correct me if I missed the one, but those are basically the four tenants of the recipe. So we had so many people coming to look at that from up from around the US. It got to be where we just couldn't effectively run our organization and at the same time, talk about the benefits of what we've done.
And so that's when Purpose Built Communities was formed. Its role really as a consultant basically is to help quote-unquote “franchise the model.” We don't do any of the funding of the models. We just say, this is the playbook, what are the things that we've learned, you can be part of our network if you agree to follow these basic tenets.
And what that gives you is: Years of experience for other cities that have done it. New Orleans is the furthest along behind East Lake. They're in year 12, I think, or 13. And so every year that you exist as an organization, you learn something, good or bad.
And so for the people that are just starting out, they have the benefit of those that have been out there for so long. And so that's why it’s important that the work of the basic Foundation continues because we want to be able to say, well, in your 40th year, you're going to see this happen versus in your first year.
And so, it's spread all over the US now. There's a separate organization. That's part of the Cousins family of organizations.
And they're doing amazing things. COVID certainly slowed them down like everything else, but I believe the latest count was 23 cities- and I can double check that and give it to you- that are using that model across the US. And there's no end in sight in terms of what the capabilities are.
So, it's truly a remarkable thing, that the outcomes that we've seen are truly amazing. And I think kind of the offshoot of that just to clarify how things go in Atlanta now. So we have the East Lake community. We have a Purpose Built Community over in Grove Park, which is on the west side of Atlanta.
And then the newest member in Atlanta is a Focused Community Strategies, which is down kind of in the Turner Field area of Atlanta. So there are three Purpose Built Communities in the city (Atlanta) now. The Tour Championship and other charitable efforts support all three of those organizations in the Atlanta market, because we're directly tied to those.
So it's really a remarkable story. It'll be Tom Cousins’ legacy of starting East Lake and what's happened through that is truly amazing. Just so many different layers of what can be attributed to his legacy from buildings in Atlanta to this organization, to saving East Lake, to all kinds of things.
So I just feel lucky to be a part of it. The other thing I'd mentioned too, is there's a separate splinter organization called Purpose Built Schools where you can take the lessons learned in education only and apply those to a school system. And so we're actually doing that work down in Thomasville Heights.
You guys may remember, or Dan, you may not remember, but a few years ago, the Governor of Georgia basically, not threatened, but strongly encouraged, underperforming school systems. If they didn't get their act together, the state was going to come in and take them over, which ruffled a lot of feathers and PTAs, et cetera.
But one of the things that happened is basically that some of those underperforming districts kind of went out to bid and Purpose Built Schools won the bid at Thomasville Heights, which was one of the worst performing school systems in the state. And it began the really difficult work of starting with a group of kids at a certain grade level and trying to implement what we've learned at East Lake.
And the results are starting to prove themselves very similar to what we found at East Lake. So, that's a pretty neat thing that's happening. And of course those can be pretty easily implemented anywhere because they’re school systems everywhere. There may not be a neighborhood everywhere that Purpose Built Communities would work, but there's certainly a school district everywhere that you could apply some of these lessons. So it's just a very amazing organization for sure.
Roberto:That's awesome. That's really rewarding work and I'm sure it has to be doubly so for you 20, close to 25, years there. I've been going to East Lake regularly since 2003, when I started at Georgia Tech. So pretty early on in the revitalization and it had definitely turned the corner by then, but in the 18 years since just remarkable. So congrats. It's really, really cool to see.
Chad: Yeah, I agree. Very rewarding. And I think it's one of the reasons why we have a lot of long tenured staff, because the mission: “golf with a purpose.” In some places, the motto may be something that's just written on the wall or on your business card or under your tagline of your email.
For us, it's something much different than that. And it's tangible. We get to see The First Tee kids come over. We get to interact with the organizations and learn about what they're doing. We're not involved with it every day, but we're part of it. And I think it's definitely something that's real to us.
Dan: Corporate philanthropy and the idea of corporations having a social-rement as well as a profit-rement has grown too. Given that you've got a big philanthropy mission and a corporate membership, how does that play out? Does that intersect much at East Lake or are you, do you think of those two things more separately than maybe the line I'm drawing here.
Chad: I think they do. I mean, so the message could be as simple as this. If you're a corporate member at East Lake and you choose to send a group out to play, or if you buy a shirt in the golf shop or a club sandwich, or a Powerade or something else on the beverage cart, anything that we make as an organization, us being East Lake. At the end of the year, if we turn a profit, those funds are recouped into the larger nonprofit organization, which is funding a lot of this work.
So, our message to the corporate members is, Hey, buy hospitality, the Tour Championship, tell your friends to buy tickets. Send foursomes out here, pay your dues, support the East Lake Cup or any of the other Foundation, even if it's just a simple campaign. I mean, we ran a huge COVID campaign last year and we did some really cool things that we can talk about later at the club, but you will never ever find a club in the stratosphere of what East Lake is doing.
And we did those during the pandemic. And so it was just part of our DNA. And what we try to do for the corporate is just provide opportunities. And then hopefully they'll plug in to whatever part of the mission that we have with what aligns best with their mission. Whether it's a corporation being involved in more of a STEM or STEAM technology focused platform, or whether it's just, Hey, we want to buy the golf team shirts and we've got some money. We've got budget for that.
So we just try to help funnel them into some of the opportunities. But the overall message is if you support what we're doing at East Lake- golf with a purpose- it really does have a purpose. The funds are not going to go in somebody's pocket. They're not funding someone's lavish lifestyle. They're definitely doing charitable things in the community that we can point to and hopefully make those connections. So our job is to provide an opportunity for that to happen. And then the nonprofit’s job is to just provide opportunities for people to plug in.
Dan: Got it. Super cool. So Roberto and I, we're always throwing out ideas and thoughts and reflections of how far the game has come and modernized. And where it's going to modernize further. So this question is about inviting you into that debate a little bit.
Chad: Okay.
Dan: In your 25 years at East Lake, how has the club modernized in that time, and where do you think it is going to keep modernizing, projecting out the next 10 years?
Chad: Well, I think that, if you take operations, for instance, the advent of social media and just the way that computer systems work, apps, et cetera, certainly have changed. I mean, definitely on the agronomy side of things. If you look at some of the technology that is available now that makes the agronomy part of the operation more efficient, it helps you use resources better. That is certainly one that is a lot different 25 years in.
And for us, without golf carts, we used to not be able to have any sort of GPS technology. And that changed a few years ago with the advent of handheld GPS devices. So we use those devices to track pace of play, which we couldn't do without golf carts before. That's a useful tool in the overall experience, helps us manage expectations, and we can see a group is behind and go out and talk to them, without having an angry Marshall running around the golf course all day. Those are two examples. I mean, outside of that, from a technology standpoint, just seeing what guys are hitting off the 10th tee now at East Lake, the old number one. Mostly irons from the championship tee. And when I started in ‘98, they were hitting drivers. And so I think that's a pretty big change, but that hole still plays really difficult for the members, which surprises me. But for the pros, and for the guys at the top level, they want to hit it in the fairway there and be at the bottom of the hill so they can have a level of shot of that green. They’re just hitting a different club to get there.
But I would say over time, the Tour Championship outside of Tiger’s win the year that we almost lost our bent grass greens in 2007, the scores have been pretty consistent from anywhere from 8 under to 14 under, except for that one year.
And so I think that's just a testament to the design of the golf course and how important it is to hit it straight there and be able to putt really well. I think those are the two tenets of the pros or the professionals that we always see outside of the one year in 2007 where the green were basically dead through the extreme heat event. I remember Zach Johnson coming in after he shot 60 in one of the rounds of the Tour Championship, and we were excited. We were like, Hey man, shot the course record. And he goes, please don't make that any part of the official record here.
He said the golf course is defenseless. He said, it's just not right. He said, it's defenseless. He goes, it's just, it's not supposed to play this way. So I would just say that the technology has changed a fair amount in some ways, but really not that much in others.
Roberto: Another little known fact is that- I believe this is correct- East Lake has the second most pitched greens from front to back on the PGA tour behind only Pebble Beach.
Chad: Yeah, I would, uh, I would agree with that. There are not many straight putts at East Lake, especially if you go past the hole high and you're coming downhill, cross grain, cross ridge, it's really difficult to make putts. And so we see that every year in the Tour Championship, you see guys miss a lot of 10 to 12 footers. Very, very narrowly missed, but they're deceiving. It just makes them tough to putt.
Roberto: Talking about modernizing golf. Can I play in a hoodie at East Lake? True or false?
Chad: Yes. Uh, yeah, I mean, we're not gonna…
Roberto: How do you feel about that?
Chad: I don't love it personally, but am I going to tackle you on the first tee? Probably not.
Roberto: I love hoodies, but I don't think you should play golf in them, but I digress.
Chad: Yeah. We'll chat this case.
Dan: Do you have one in the shop, or is that not one of your vendors’ favorites yet?
Chad: We do have a hoodie in the shop, but it's not one that you would play golf. It's extra soft and thick on purpose.
Roberto: It's a tailgating hoodie?
Chad: Yeah, exactly.
Roberto: Nice. Well, Chad, you survived all the hard questions. We're gonna close with a kind of round of quick hits. So Dan leads a section called Tap-ins and then I'll switch to some business questions called Buy Or Sell. So these are first answer that comes to mind- quick hits or feel free to expand. It's your world.
Dan: Chad, we know you've got a reputation for being quite a barbecue connoisseur and cook and chef. Who wins a cook-off: you or Stewart Cink?
Chad: Well, it's tough to answer that one because we're teammates, we have a team together.
Roberto: You have to answer.
Chad: Yeah, I have to answer? I have to go to myself on that one. Yeah. I'll definitely go “Chad” on that answer. Yeah.
Dan: Love it. Bet on yourself and double down. So in this winning cook-off, what drink pairs best with your barbecue?
Chad: Ice cold beer for me.
Dan: Any favorites?
Chad: Pick whatever you like. Some people like light beer, some people don't, whatever you like. But it has to be ice cold.
Dan: Bear Bryant or Nick Saban?
Chad: Nick Saban.
Dan: When it comes to polos, performance fabrics or cotton fabrics?
Chad: Performance.
Dan: What if you were a GM somewhere outside of Atlanta, would you say the same thing?
Chad: Cotton certainly has its place, but what sells, if you're looking at it from a pure retail standpoint and what people are wearing, they're not wearing cotton, they're not asking for cotton. So I just don't think... it's there, and some brands are still trying to do it, and some doing it better than others, but you know, for me personally, there’s no contest.
Dan: What do you prefer most: giving lessons or sitting in board meetings?
Chad: Giving lessons.
Dan: Why?
Chad: Because, well, I think a couple of reasons. One, I think that except for playing golf with someone, giving someone a lesson is a great way to get to know them. And then if you're able to have a positive impact on them and how they play and how they enjoy the game, that's hopefully something that they're not trying to do for a living.
They're just trying to go from an 18 to a 14 or a 14 to a six or whatever it is. You become invested in their development and it's just like they'll come into the clubhouse and tell you about how they play. And to me, that's just a great thing. Some of my best relationships I have with members are people who I teach. And I don't do a lot of teaching nowadays, but I still have some people who I still do teach that I used to teach when I was doing my other job. And It's just a great relationship. But the only downfall for me is I often forget to charge people, and, uh, it's just, for me, can I make them happier on the golf course.That's really what it's about.
Dan: Who do you most look forward to seeing on Tour Championship week?
Chad: I would say, because the players change every year and we don't have a lot of direct interaction with the players. I mean, and I get that. I mean, I understand. Stewart Cink is a buddy, and I understand the life that these guys have and it's one place to another, and they're doing a job.
I would say it's just the staff- the staff from the PGA Tour. The staff that we interact with Coke and Southern, the people that come in who are really behind the scenes, making it happen. I really look forward to seeing them and working with them. And then in addition, the local folks who we deal with all year. It just adds to a very fun week and everybody's working hard and they're working together.
And I think that they're really underappreciated if you don't understand what it really takes to run a Tour event. You can just come and watch the people that you will never know their names and how hard they work and how much they care about doing the work that really produces what you see on television. So for me, it's those guys and gals.
Dan: I'm just glad the answer wasn't Roberto Castro. So we didn't see his head inflate on this video conference right now.
Roberto: If I saw Chad every year at the Tour Championship, my bank account would be a lot more padded than it is.
Chad: That's true. That's true.
Dan: When the sea of people was swarming Tiger on the walk up 18 in route to winning the 2018 Tour Championship, talk to me about what was going through your Superintendent's mind. Was he happy, pumped like the rest of us were, or was he freaking out about the course condition with all that foot traffic going on?
Chad: He was freaking out.
Roberto: What about you?
Chad: I was standing on the overhang and the thing that I couldn't get past, were the people crawling under the sticker bushes, trying to get under sticker bushes. Grown men, not realizing that there was zero room on the other side and they were just diving right under.
And then I just stopped for a second and watched it and, uh, and I'll never forget just the buzz, that the energy that it was in the air for people that were so happy for him. And I just was like, man, this is awesome for him. And if we have any damage to the golf course, so be it. You know, this is an incredible moment for golf and it's an incredible moment for Tiger especially. I think everybody felt it there that day. And I'll never forget what it felt like after you got past your initial reaction of, you're not supposed to be doing that. There's too much of that in golf, versus to like, Hey, this is happening. It's awesome. I hope nobody gets hurt. That was one of the things I thought about. And once we realized that nobody got hurt, including Tiger or Rory or any of their caddies or any of the TV people that were with them, it was awesome.
Dan: I have a feeling Powerade was not the best selling beverage that day.
Chad: I think no, never is, but you know, it's a Coke product. So we support it and Power Zero and Coke Zero and all the other ones. So, there were a lot of other beverages consumed.
Dan: Alright, Chad, you made all your Tap-ins. Over to you Roberto for Buy or Sell.
Roberto: All right, Chad. Buy or sell: Tesla stock?
Chad: Buy.
Roberto: Buy or sell: net format for the Tour Championship?
Chad: I'm buying it.
Roberto: Buy or sell: allowing hoodies on the golf course? Well, we already covered that one. I jumped the gun on that one.
Roberto: Buy or sell: FedEx or Atlanta-based UPS?
Chad: FedEx.
Roberto: At a way. Company man.
Roberto: Buy or sell: Bobby's brisket?
Chad: Definitely sell Bobby's brisket.
Roberto: What's the story there? Stewart teed me up for that. Come on. What is Bobby's brisket?
Chad: Bobby's brisket is- so we were cooking a competition up in Cumming or somewhere, and we had a brisket at East Lake that was frozen Snake River Farms brisket. So my job was to bring the brisket to the competition, among other things. So I didn't really look at it. I went and got it. I asked one of the guys in the kitchen to get it for me and we put it in a cooler. I didn't really look at it. And we got all the way there and it was kind of a part cooked brisket.
Not very good. Just was, it was just a complete screw up on my part. Illegal. You're not even supposed to do that in competition. I mean, we didn't have any chance to win. So, it was just a terrible mistake and Stewart and the other guy on our team, Mike, started calling it Bobby's brisket and that's something I'll never live down. Definitely selling Bobby's brisket.
Roberto: You guys should...I know you guys do some charitable donations where you guys will come and cook something you can auction off a dinner with Que School, which is the name of your competition barbecue team. But I mean, the price people are paying just cannot be high enough to hang out with you, Stewart and Lipnick, by the way. It's just incredible.
Chad: It's so much fun. It's so much fun to do it. We'd love doing it.
Roberto: Your food is incredible. You guys cooked for our charity event that we did at the Athletic Club six or eight years ago, and the food was off the charts and you guys were so generous. Rolled up the big pit barbecue smoker behind the pickup truck. All three of you took a day out of your schedule. And that was, it was a big, big hit.
Roberto: Alright, last Buy or Sell: pickle business or golf business?
Chad: Hmm. Uh, I have to say golf business for now.
Roberto: Okay.
Chad: Pickle business, maybe for later.
Roberto: Parker's Pickles everyone. I'd tell you to go to the website, but I think it's friends and family only, right?
Chad: Friends and family only. Yep. No website unfortunately.
Roberto: When it's your full-time business, we'll have, uh, we'll have you sponsor the podcast and you'll just be selling pickles like crazy.
Chad: Like crazy, yes.
Roberto: Chad, thanks a ton. Super informative. I learned a ton of things that I'd never known about running a golf course at the highest level. You're a true leader and really, really impressive. So thanks for the time.
Chad: Yeah, thanks for having me. I really enjoyed it. I wish you guys all the best.
Dan: Thanks again for the time. This is super, super helpful and informative. I think our audience will love it.
Takeaways
Roberto: Dan, I really appreciate Chad taking the time to talk with us. I’ve known Chad for a long time and seen what he’s done at East Lake, but getting a look under the hood was really insightful and really interesting. What are your big takeaways?
Dan: Well, first of all, I was just so impressed with just how many positions Chad holds. I don’t know many clubs that have a GM, and COO titles, period, let alone under one person. So I was really impressed by how that must give a pictorial, full 360 view of the club, its operations, and its mission. You’ve been there a little bit longer, you’ve seen East Lake and Chad. How do you see him evolve in those roles?
Roberto: Well, you make a good point. Because the two big roles in most clubs are GM and Director of Golf. And he has had both of those. East Lake does not have tennis, does not have a pool, is not doing a million Mother’s Day brunches and stuff that some other country clubs are doing. So it’s more peaceful that he can do both of those two things. But it’s still a big job, both of those are big jobs, so it’s really cool to get some details on what he does day to day.
Dan: Yeah, definitely. The other thing that struck me about how he sees his role was interesting. I’m fascinated about how people approach their jobs as leaders and you jumped right in and asked about what decisions he makes. And it’s all about how he defers to employees and their experience and how they can sort of manifest the club experience to members by being focused, by being present, etc. And that mentality of everything doesn’t have to go through Chad. He’s not where the buck stops all the time. It’s how he distributes that ownership and experience of the club really struck me. Reminiscent a little bit of what we talked about with Harry Arnett in episode 2 in a lot of ways. I saw a little bit of a parallel there.
Roberto: Yeah, Harry mentioned avoiding CEO-disease. I think we talked about that with Harry. And gosh, has anyone done a better job of that than Chad? Going back to the kitchen, seeing where the food comes in? I thought he really had a pulse on the agronomy of things. That is not a guy who’s in an ivory tower; he’s really amongst the guys. And you nailed it; my biggest takeaway will be that when a member complains or something goes wrong, his first instinct is to try to evaluate how he failed the employee by not putting them in a position to succeed. That to me will be my biggest takeaway from this conversation.
Dan: The servant leader mindset. I love it.
Roberto: A hundred percent. A 100% servant leadership mindset.
Dan: Switching gears a little bit. I’m really curious about your take on this, Roberto, because I didn’t realize how prevalent the corporate membership model was at East Lake. You’ve been around the block more than I have and seen many more clubs than I have. How prevalent is that model in your experience? It struck me as something unique.
Roberto: Not very prevalent at all. I think it’s kind of a dated model and it was always a minority share of the membership where XYZ Club would try to get 500 individual members and then they’d offer a corporate membership where a local law firm could put five people in or get some access. It’s never been a big part of private golf as far as I know. But East Lake is a total outlier there. For 20 years, that was 100% of the membership except for those few legacy members and I’m telling you, those were a handful- like 10 or 20 guys who were the legacy members from kind of the dark days of East Lake. So, pretty unique.
Dan: Yeah, the utilization aspect of it was interesting. You jumped right in there- you said is it true that the corporate members play during the week and the private members play during the weekend? And Chad said, yeah, that’s part of it. So I thought that was an interesting way to expand the membership without jamming the club all at the same time.
Roberto: Yeah, I think it goes back to utilization and how you get people through a golf course and the best use of that land, of that property, of that investment every day to go maintain a golf course. How do you get a return on that, and not just monetarily, but how do you best use that asset.
Dan: What our listeners don’t know is that you are obsessed with this utilization topic. Going back to our college days, we both had to do our own Capstone Design Project. We were not in the same group, but I know you were obsessed with this topic and it was a big part of your thesis. So I know this runs deep for you.
Roberto: Yeah, I have to admit our project was the Georgia Aquarium where we just looked at how to get the building loaded up faster. It had just opened and the only complaint about the Aquarium was just how crowded the exhibits would get. So we went in and kind of evaluated what the best way to admit people to the Aquarium was and I see golf in the same way. If I was a senior in college at Tech now, I would be dying to go to the PGA of America or the PGA Tour and put some numbers to pace of play and tee times. So for example, they found out that spacing the tee times from 8 minutes to 10 minutes gives you a little bit more room between the groups so you can absorb the variability of a lost ball or whatever. But I just feel like someone needs to make an easy, plug and play model- this is where our tee times are, we have 18 holes so that’s 18 service stations. Let’s say you have a big turn stand. How does that affect the back nine pace of play if one group goes right from 9 to 10, and the next group takes 15 minutes to go to the restroom, get a hot dog, get a beer? Like, does that jam up the whole back nine? I just feel like there should be a product or a platform where you could just plug and play all this stuff to figure how to best get people through the golf course. But maybe we could build that out one day.
Dan: Or sponsor a team of students and see if they can do it.
Roberto: That would be so cool. But more personally about utilization, I really think golf can do so much better on that front. Personal anecdote: when I was 13 or 14 years old growing up in the Atlanta suburbs, we weren’t members of a club. And I started going with a friend to a place called Crooked Creek. And the pro was super nice, he saw that I loved golf, and would play any chance I got. And he basically gave me an opportunity to come out, chip and putt, hit balls any time I wanted and play when it wasn’t busy. So I never got to make a tee time, couldn’t play Saturday mornings obviously, couldn’t play Friday afternoons. But being able to go there and chip and putt and hang out, check in with the starter, and he would be like, hey, about 2:30 the tee sheet will open up and you can go play. And not charge me when I was 12 or 13 years old. It was a huge reason why I was able to continue with golf and I think that’s the biggest gap in the quote-unquote “growing the game.” You get people introduced to golf through The First Tee and various different programs. Then the next step of getting on a golf course and playing more consistently- it gets really cost prohibitive. And just think about how many golf courses- private clubs and public courses across the whole spectrum. You’re maintaining this asset, you’re pumping all this money into maintenance and keeping the course great. What’s wrong with having some different people come play it when it’s not busy? Whatever that is- late in the day, or Sunday mornings a lot of private clubs aren’t busy. People do different things, go to church, whatever. I just think that’s a big under-served asset in golf that we could do better as a whole. And I hope we will in the future.
Dan: Look at you! Growing the game.
Roberto: Growing the game!
Dan: I love it. Let’s look at some of the philanthropic aspects of East Lake that we covered. There’s a lot of debate zooming out, way back, in the role of the corporation. Is it a profit-driven mission, versus the social mission? You’ve seen this evolve a lot at East Lake. So tell us how you see East Lake and what you know about what they do and take the listeners there.
Roberto: It’s a huge part of what East Lake Foundation does. So East Lake Foundation to simplify has revitalized an entire community and delivered great education and quality of life to a huge, big neighborhood in Atlanta. Well, about 35% of the East Lake Foundation’s budget comes directly from the Tour Championship. So the corporate dollars that Coca-Cola and Southern Company and others put into that tournament- sure, they get marketing exposure and they sponsor a great tournament- it’s great on that front. But to be able to be roughly a third of a community is huge. And that’s just one data point among fifty on the PGA Tour, however many events that we have. Salesmanship Club in Dallas, the Thunderbirds in Phoenix, all these local charitable organizations get a big check at the end of their tournament from the Tour and from the sponsors and I don’t know exactly which bucket all the money comes from. But I think you pulled the number? Three billion dollars the Tour has donated to charity over the years? So I’m sure people are a little skeptical, but it’s a real thing and it’s cool to see it in my community and all across the country.
Dan: Yeah, it’s fascinating work that they do. And you’ve seen that at a bunch of Tour stops. You’ve mentioned a couple of examples of other Foundations. Another one that jumps to mind to me is St. Jude. What really sets this apart in your mind? It gets a lot of publicity. I’m sure it’s well-earned. How does it stand out to you in your mind versus the other fifty Tour stops that have charitable missions?
Roberto: It’s just really community focused. I think that’s probably how it stands out. Obviously St. Jude or Memphis all goes to the hospital (and research) and I’m not as well versed in what some other host organizations or charity organizations do. But where you live and where you go to school- what’s more valuable than improving the quality of those things for people? That’s East Lake’s mission. So I just can’t think of a higher purpose than improving two of the highest value, quality of life indicators. How safe is your neighborhood? How good is your school? So that’s as good as it gets, if you ask me.
Dan: Yeah, I agree. I came off the episode feeling really good about what they are doing. I also came off the episode feeling really hungry because we talked about a lot of food. We talked about bar-b-que, we talked about the infamous mahi-mahi sandwich. But it got me thinking a little bit more about Chad and his decision making style, where there’s a spectrum here. Like, how deeply analytical do you get- think the Bryson Dechambeau of business- and then think somewhere much more intuitive and let it flow, based on your answers from Chad on the more intuitive side where he’s willing to bake intuition-based things by listening to his membership, etc. But also a little bit of a flare for experimentation- the mahi mahi sandwich is a good example. So I am curious if you have seen other forms of experiments there at East Lake or other venues where you’ve seen something like, that’s unusual, that’s an unusual little take on how to make the country club experience special and it sort of panned out.
Roberto: Yeah, it would be interesting to get on the Show a long-time Board member of a private club, because I kind of pick up some anecdotes of Chardonnay politics- is that what Ferris called it? But I heard a nugget from my club that they were looking at doing a new New Year’s program or something. And the Board and the GM looked very closely at how that would net out financially and it was not very intuitive. Obviously it would be a service and experience for the members, but if it wasn’t going to pay for itself- they were looking at it through that lens pretty closely, which I think is important. But I got the opposite feeling from Chad- I agree with you. I felt like he was more on the intuitive side. And maybe that’s just more enjoyable to talk about. I don’t know. It would be interesting to see what the decision-making process is for clubs, and GMs, but we’ll have some more folks on to see if we can figure it out.
Dan: My last takeaway was I learned about the difference between Zach Johnson and me. We talked about the story how he got the course record at East Lake and asked not to be recognized because course conditions were too easy. Boy, you got a couple course records that I’m aware of where I have not. But I would absolutely lobby as hard as I can to get the biggest plaque I could get away with to stamp that thing on there. I would even pay for it if I needed to if that happened.
Roberto: You think that’s the only difference between you and Zach Johnson?
Dan: Probably not, but the biggest one that I just learned about.
Roberto: That’s pretty funny. That’s very on-brand for Zach, and I don’t disagree with you- I would probably be, if you guys want to put a plaque on the first tee, stick it on my member account. I think that’s probably the more common reaction to shooting 60 around any golf course, I don’t care how soft the greens were. Come on!
Dan: Wow, Zach can keep the course record. We’ll keep The Course Record Show. That’s as close as I think you and I will ever get to the course record. So, I’ll take it.
Roberto: Deal. We’ll keep turning stones over on The Course Record Show. Till next time...
