#7 Jeehae Lee
Jeehae Lee is founder and CEO of Sportsbox.ai, a tech company focused on sports performance improvement. Jeehae has built a well rounded set of experiences in golf, as a LPGA pro, Michelle Wie's manager and TopGolf executive, picking up a Wharton MBA along the way. Jeehae is articulate and insightful about the business of golf. In this episode she offers her opinions on the future of golf coaching, the role of tech in golf, and the ever-changing role that golf has played in her life.
Read the interview below or listen on Spotify, Apple, Google, Stitcher or Amazon. Enjoy!
Holderness & Bourne Giveaway
We're mixing it up this episode and running a very cool custom apparel giveaway with H&B. The action is all happening over on their Instagram account @holdernessbourne. We're giving away custom logoed Course Record Show gear, designed by Castro Golf. The shirt is our all-time favorite golf shirt - the Maxwell - and the pullover is the Somerville, a mid-weight piece that's perfect for when the weather cools down. To enter, go to @holdernessbourne on Instagram - We will choose the winner this Friday 8/13 and send exact sizes.
Roberto: Jeehae, hey, thanks so much for joining us. One thing that fascinates me is why people play golf and how that changes throughout their lives. You played on the Yale golf team as a freshman, didn't play for a few years, and then rejoined the team your senior year. Then you had a stint in professional golf before going back to business school. How did your relationship with the game evolve over that time? And why do you play when you play now?
Jeehae: Yeah, it's a really good question, actually. And I think the answer would be different, would have been different, at different stages in my life, as you could have probably guessed.
I think when I was growing up, it was just kind of my thing. You know, my sister was a very accomplished piano player and I think my parents wanted me to do something extra-curricular wise and have my own talents that I could develop. So it was just my thing. I went to practice every day after school and I was kind of good at it.
So I just kept going. And I think it gave me an identity through my adolescent years and high school and such. And then at Yale, you know, after playing my freshman year and spending three, four nights a week away from school for a tournament, I started asking myself for the first time in my life- Do I really need to play golf, right? Why am I playing golf? Is this going to do anything for me after college? And for the first time in my life, I just kind of questioned the role of golf in my life. And I felt like I had a choice and I said, you know what? I want to go pursue other things.
I want to be active on campus. I want to go abroad. So I left the game for a while. But then my senior year, I went back because one, I had a job lined up and it just kinda seemed like fun. I mean, the team was having a lot of fun. We had a great new coach and so I jumped back in without much expectation.
But for the first time in my life, I chose golf of my own volition. And that completely changed my relationship with the game. I chose it. I wanted to work at it. And once I turned pro, it played a completely different role in my life. I guess in summary, I can say, I fell in love with golf more and more as I grew up.
And as I chose golf, you know, actively chose golf (and) to play golf. And now when I play, I play to spend time with my friends and my husband. My husband started playing two and half years ago and it just brings me a lot of joy to be out there. And I know this sounds cheesy, but when I'm out there at a golf course with people I enjoy hanging out with, I just feel really grateful. So, yeah.
Roberto: Very cool.
Dan: So after you wrapped up your pro career, you had a stint managing Michelle Wie’s career as well. That sounds like the coolest job in the world from where I sit. But tell us, what's one thing you really liked about that business? And what's one thing you really did not like about the managing athletes business?
Jeehae: Yeah. I mean, it is kind of a dream job coming out of competitive golf and being able to work with one of the most iconic players in the game. And at the time, the data showed that she was the third most recognizable, or like third most famous, golfers in the world. It was Tiger, Phil, and then Michelle Wie. If you ask anybody to name three golfers, and she likely would have been the third person that you mentioned, right? Or the first, but the top three. So it was really a privilege and an honor to work with an athlete like that, a brand like that. And it was just an added bonus that she happens to be my best friend who I would hang out with on a regular basis.
Anyway, I guess my pros and cons. The pros are kind of obvious- working with the great athlete, great brands. And all the sponsors that she had: Nike Golf, and Omega. All these global major brands spend lots and lots of dollars on their sports marketing. And, you know, Michelle was one of their star assets. So it was really cool to learn how these brands activated an ambassador like Michelle Wie. So it was a great learning experience.
I guess the cons? When I quit golf, when I was wanting to step away from the game, I really wanted to get away. And having to get back on the road in this different capacity was something that I didn't want for myself. Right? Like I wanted a brand new, fresh start and I just kind of felt like it was a continuation of my previous life. So, looking back, I mean, net-net obviously I wouldn't trade that experience for the world, but at the time I felt like I had kind of remained static instead of moving forward.
Roberto: That makes sense. Some people start to stay golf-adjacent whenever they move from college golf or professional golf. And then I have a friend who was like, I just want to go in a completely different direction. And he got into real estate. Now he plays golf five days a week for real estate, but he circled back to it.
Jeehae: Yeah, it just kinda brings you back, you know, look at me, I'm still in golf. So...
Roberto: Yeah. Well, let's talk about that. Let's talk about business. You have a degree from Yale and an MBA from Wharton giving you pretty much unlimited opportunity in any industry. Why choose the golf business?
Jeehae: Yeah. I don't know about unlimited opportunity. But yeah, I guess I could've gone a more traditional route. When I went to Wharton, I honestly didn't really know what I wanted to do with the degree.
So I explored a little bit and I could've gone the more traditional route, you know, investment banking, consulting, whatever have you. But I'm really glad that I came across Topgolf and joined that company at the stage that I was in. It just kind of gave me and exposed me to the traditional business side of things.
Because Topgolf when I joined it was a hospitality company. They made more money from food and beverage than from golf and even related to golf. So, it exposed me to that, but I guess I'm now more directly in the golf industry with what I'm doing with Sportsbox AI. And I think the reason for that is because time and again, I realized being in golf, being around golf people, & talking about golf makes me happy- genuinely.
I just feel more like myself and more like my best self when I'm in those situations. You know? So I was at the US Open I guess three weeks ago. It was kind of a reunion of sorts for the golf industry folks. Cause it had been since The Players in 2020, since golf industry folks attended a golf event for business reasons.
So there were tons and tons of people who, you know, friends that I hadn't seen in a year and a half. And I just felt so happy to be in that environment again, seeing those people. So I think I'm in it for the long run.
Dan: So we’ll get to what you're doing most recently in a bit. But sticking with Topgolf a little bit. Do you, do you still see Topgolf as an entertainment company or do you see it as a tech company?
Jeehae: It's an interesting question. Or is it a golf company now that it's been acquired by Callaway?
It's really a mix of all those things. If you just isolate the venue business, you know, Topgolf’s venue business, it's an entertainment company. No doubt. When you step into a venue, any other suspicion kind of goes away. You see people drinking and partying and in heels and in bachelor party groups, just having a great time, whether they hit one ball or, you know, 30 shots. So it really is an entertainment concept.
Roberto: I agree with that. I'm a member of the gym here that's been around for at least a decade in Atlanta. So the concept was fitness with a golf angle and they had a couple of simulators and really high-end trainers and they had some Tour players working out there and it's done well. But when Topgolf kind of ascended, they finally looked at each other and they were like, “alcohol.” That's really what is the missing piece here. And the first thing you said was you walk in, people are drinking. So it was kind of like a self-deprecating joke that maybe if they'd have put a keg in the corner, it would have been the next Topgolf.
Jeehae: Yeah. I mean, golf is almost like it’s in the backdrop, right? It's just an activity. It could be whatever. It's just that Topgolf is so good at creating that environment and bringing people together. And their core values include things like making moments that matter for everybody, right? That’s what they want to accomplish. That's their brand purpose. It's not about making people into great golfers or whatever else.
Roberto: So when you joined (Topgolf) in 2015, they had roughly 28 locations. And at the end of 2020, they had 70 locations. What do you think made it so successful and what part of that growth trajectory were you most directly involved with?
Jeehae: Yeah, actually, when I joined in July (2015), I think they only had like 15 or 16 venues.
Roberto: Really?
Jeehae: Yeah. So, obviously the venue business saw a huge amount of growth fueled by raising equity and debt and to kind of fuel that growth once they figured out the model, right? Like, this is exactly how we're gonna make the venues, literally cookie cutter. We're just going to go build a whole bunch of these things. We just need the capital to do it and they did it successfully. But the part of the growth that I was most directly involved with was when they made acquisitions like Protracer and turned it into Toptracer and Toptracer Range. And they acquired World Golf Tour, which is a golf game company, and created Topgolf Media, and a partner with Full Swing Golf to create Topgolf Swing Suite.
I was part of every one of those new business units and actually formalizing the business and creating different revenue streams within those. And sometimes actually operating those business-within-business units to drive growth for the brand.
Dan: So you mentioned some of those innovation arms for Topgolf, and I know you were involved in Toptracer, which you mentioned, as well as Topgolf Live. Did you, or Topgolf rather, see those arms as their own business units or as a bit of a gateway drug into the venue business.
Jeehae: Yeah. The business units were formally, you know, Topgolf Media, which has a lot of the original content and sponsorship and the legacy game business. The purpose of the Topgolf Media release really was to drive the growth of the brand and get the brand to as wide of an audience as possible, whether it's digital or physical.
So, being able to bring the brand in the form of a stadium experience or at an F1 event- like, that all fit in nicely. Every time we did one of those events, we generated hundreds of millions of earned media impressions, especially when we aligned them with new venue launches in that city. It just worked so strategically for the brand, like announcing the arrival of the new venue with a big event like that. So, I forget what the original question was.
Dan: I think you answered it, which is whether those were thought of as standalone businesses or as an entry point into the venue business. And I think you move towards the latter.
Jeehae: Yeah. Yeah.
Dan: You also alluded to the fact that Callaway acquired Topgolf. I know it was announced last year and closed this year. $2.6 billion acquisition. In your mind, who's the big winner in that deal?
Jeehae: Oh, Callaway, no doubt for sure. Well, I mean, timing-wise it's no secret that Topgolf was trying to go public early on in the year, but the pandemic kind of derailed those plans and they had to have some kind of an equity event to keep growing.
So, Callaway got a steal with that valuation, I think. What that valuation says to me is that they bought the venue business for that price and all of the other business units that I mentioned, like Media and Topgolf Swing and Toptracer and Toptracer Range which are growth business units. They were valued at zero basically. So Toptracer Range is a phenomenal business. I was part of that the year preceding my departure from Topgolf. Basically the technology, a pair of Toptracer cameras can track shots hit from 10 bays across and multiple floors.
So, like, do you have a three-story driving range? A pair of Toptracer cameras can track shots from 30 bays simultaneously. And so you can turn a 30 bay driving range into something like a Topgolf where you can hit, you can play Topgolf-like games, or play at Pebble Beach or St. Andrews, or do long drive competitions right there in your driving range using a pair of cameras. Are you kidding me?
And that business was on this hockey stick trajectory of growth. It was only at 1% penetration globally in terms of the total market availability. So to get that business for $0, I mean, I can't imagine. Yeah, I, there's no doubt in my mind, Calloway is winning.
Roberto: So you think that Toptracer Range will be at tons of country clubs? Because the only thing I've seen at two places, because the price is exorbitant, is the Trackman Range. This (Toptracer) does the similar thing at a much lower price point.
Jeehae: Much lower. As I mentioned, the two cameras can track so many bays simultaneously, so it's actually very, very cost efficient. So they're starting to get into grass ranges, but they have a pretty high success rate with covered ranges, especially in Asia.
Roberto: Yeah, you made a pretty strong case for Callaway and that acquisition.
Jeehae: Yeah, fun fact. Half of the world's driving ranges- more than half the world's driving ranges- are in Japan and Korea. And you know, I don't think TrackMan Range or any other competitor has an installation in either of those markets. They’re all the Toptracer Range.
Roberto: Wow. That's cool. Well, within the last year you left Topgolf and founded a new company called Sportsbox AI, which you're the CEO of. Tell us about that company, what the thesis of the business is, and the market you're pursuing.
Jeehae: Yeah. So Sportsbox AI- we’re a computer vision AI company that's able to turn a 2D video- so a video taken from your mobile phone or whatever single camera- and turn it into a full 3D motion analysis. So it's like a marker-less motion capture studio built into your mobile phone.
So all of the biomechanical analysis that you would want to do with any kind of athletic motion, whether it's golf or tennis or baseball, or, you know, fitness movement, like, I don't know, Pilates and yoga, you can get all the body segments, movement in degrees and inches or degrees per _ right there on your phone with a single video.
So within golf- so we want to go into all of these other verticals, but we're starting with a golf product- the golf app- that will allow you to do that type of analysis and learn something about how to improve your game through just your mobile phone device. And the thesis is that, with a single video, we can tell you how to improve your game. We can connect you with a golf professional, a coach, who can analyze and interpret the data for you and give you recommendations on what you need to do with your swing. We can recommend clubs that fit you better based on your swing speed and load pattern. We can recommend and sell to you swing training aids, right?
Like, if we're able to diagnose your swing and a drill video, that is harder to get to fixing the problems you have, we can also recommend some training that will help you fix your swing problems. So it eventually will become this marketplace where through one video, we can set you on your way to a better game.
Roberto: And what's the next step after golf, that is, next sport?
Jeehae: Yeah. And we're still considering and doing the market research necessary to pick the next vertical. We're getting lots of different advice and we're also studying what is already out there and different sports. But we see a huge opportunity in strength and conditioning where, you know, a lot of people have been working out at home through a Peloton or tonal or some kind of an app and following content that was meant for everyone. So regardless of your mobility issues or whatever that's unique to you, you just kind of blindly follow a piece of content.
So, being able to integrate with any of those devices or apps to one, give you form feedback so that you don't injure yourself or work out the wrong way. And two, recommend a series of content that is uniquely designed for you and your strengths and weaknesses. I think that's where fitness is headed and we'd have a really strong position to play a big role in that.
Roberto: That's where my head went immediately was fitness, because I feel like it's... as much as you try to have correct form and branch out into different exercises, that's a massive market. I'd be your first customer for that. So I love that angle.
Jeehae: Yeah. Have you... I assume you've done GEARS and that kind of stuff?
Roberto: It's been a few years, but GEARS is the one that I've been on. And for the listeners that don't know what GEARS is and I'll let you explain it, but it's a simulator bay that you have to wear markers. There are multiple cameras. It’s very, very expensive. They only have them in a couple of golf courses per state. So your technology is a very different way to produce the same product. But I’ll let you speak to it.
Jeehae: No, I'm curious. What did you get out of your GEARS session? What was useful for you?
Roberto: Like I said, it's been a couple years, but you know, the biomechanic stuff is pretty handy. You really can see where you're applying pressure, where the torque of the body is that you can't see under a shirt or with a 2D video. So that was kind of the big stuff. I think a lot of the training tools are useful for affirming a hunch that a great teacher or a great instructor has. And then also displaying to the student what the teacher is trying to say. It's evidence in the teacher's case for the student. I think that's the biggest thing about Trackman, it's the first one or two times you used it or FlightScope or whatever, where you know, that that student is like, I'm swinging to the right and I'm hitting it left, that doesn't make sense. And then you show them the data and they're like, okay, well, I understand now. So I think that GEARS kind of did some of that for me, but it wasn't groundbreaking in my opinion.
Jeehae: Yeah. I think the biggest thing is we've been teaching based on video for such a long time. And especially now when there's a lot of these remote learning tools where you send a video into your coach and they analyze it for you, and it's great if the coach already knows your tendencies and they've seen your swing in person.
But if you're just blindly sending a video that you took, nine out of 10 times, it's probably from the wrong angle. Like by wrong angle, I don't mean completely out of frame. Like, if you're shooting something from down the line, from your right side looking at the target, if you have it off by this much, your swing can look steep or shallow or on-plane. It's just playing tricks with the position of the camera. You don't get the true sense of, okay, my swing is on-plane or shallow, or so you're just teaching based on false information at that point. So being able to show true, objective absolute degrees and inches, I think it's pretty important and groundbreaking.
Roberto: So how does Sportsbox work in that regard? Do you have a tripod? Does it have specific instructions or does it just calculate everything and create the model?
Jeehae: Yeah. So basically you just set the phone up or have somebody hold it for you. Right now we're supporting just a face-on angle and you take one video using the app or upload a face-on video.
And from that it generates an avatar that you can spin around to all of the different angles, just like in GEARS. So you can see that swing from face-on, down line, behind you, target, or above or below and get all of the angles. And angles and inches are in absolute measurements, not relative to where the camera's setting. So you're getting all of those absolute measurements using that one video.
Dan: Roberto’s main issue or point around the technology confirming and giving evidence to what an instructor was saying. Do you see Sportsbox AI as sort of reversing that, where it's more of the diagnostic tool that then an instructor can use and get, use that as a launching point for instruction? Or do you still see Roberto's sort of order of operations prevailing in the future of golf instruction?
Jeehae: No, I think or I know that it's actually going to go the other way fairly soon. So what's really exciting about having all of this data is, and having a team that's really well versed in first-hand machine learning, is you put swing data, so we're getting thousands of data points on one single swing on all the different body parts, put that together with the outcome data. So where the shot went and what the club head was doing, put it together. We will very soon be able to derive insights about what the cause and effect is in a golf swing. So for a six foot one wingspan of this kind of skill level of golfer, in order to launch it two degrees higher or make it spin a thousand RPM less or whatever it is, or make it go 20 yards farther, they need to change this and this and this and your body.
So that's data really done by AI and machine learning can tell us things that literally big data humans cannot process. So, all of the advisors in the golf space that we've talked to- Sean Foley who is an investor by the way- and my dad owns, and all these elite coaches- what they're most excited about is what the data and the AI are going to teach them about what the cause and effect is in the golf scene.
Roberto: That's cool. That's really cool. And I think that I can give you some cause and effect. I squatted on my right hip on the back swing. That's why I carry it 275, you know. I can save you some time on Sportsbox AI.
Jeehae: I mean, it may unlock something in your golf swing or it might tell you something about your golf swing that you didn't know about that is highly correlated with swing speed. You know, selfishly, that's what I'm in it for. Right? Like I just want to hit it 10 yards farther and human coaches are not able to tell me what it is. So I want my app to tell me how I can hit it 260 (yards) consistently.
Dan: I knew that's what it's all about. I saw your video that you did on, “I just want to hit bombs.” I might be getting the specifics wrong with the idea about the video that came out last year.
Jeehae: Yup, that's what it is. I mean, it's really funny because through raising money and whatever, I've spoken with a lot of powerful and wealthy people who've accomplished incredible things in life. And all they want to do is play better golf. There's like no amount of money they will not spend to get better at golf.
Roberto: Yeah. That's why Calloway had $2.6 billion to buy Topgolf.
Dan: So besides the 10 extra yards, what motivated you to make the jump from Topgolf to founding your own company? Why did you make the leap?
Jeehae: I think the short answer is that I've always wanted to be an entrepreneur. And I think that being a professional athlete, especially an individual athlete, kind of sets you up to be an entrepreneur. You kind of have to do it all on your own. And you have to know how to weather the ups and downs, like the extreme ups and downs. And just stay steady, right? Whether you're about to- you just hit one in the water and you have to save par to make the cut for the weekend or whatever it is- you're shitting your pants.
Dan: We’ll allow that.
Jeehae: Anyway, I think being a professional athlete really does set you up to be an entrepreneur and I've always, always wanted to be one. And I even had a little side hustle when I was in business school to explore that a little bit. But I think I needed the five years at Topgolf to give me the training and the skills and the management leadership skills in order to actually be believed. I think it was always in the cards for me. Just last year through the pandemic and asking myself some existential questions, like all of us were doing, it just kind of gave me the kick in the pants to actually go do it.
Dan: So do you draw more from what you learned at Yale and Wharton in your current stage, or what you learned from the school of hard knocks, the LPGA, et cetera. What's the biggest teacher for you right now?
Jeehae: Definitely what I've learned outside of school. I think what I appreciate now more than ever before are team building and team management skills. Those are hard leadership skills, the concrete skills that one needs to develop over the course of their career.
You just can't learn that in books. Sure, I took lots of management classes and I had great professors at Wharton, but until I saw it in action from some of my mentors at Topgolf, my bosses- and I've had great bosses- seeing them navigate difficult situations and being able to make decisions and really sticking to it and how they motivated all of us to drive towards the company goals. All of those things you just cannot learn in a school setting. So, I'm drawing on a lot of the important lessons I learned at Topgolf and before that to do what I'm doing.
Roberto: That's great. I agree with you. I think that professional golfers are... it's kind of a hardcore entrepreneurial setting without being in the business world, but simply you're just used to failing a lot. Every week are 155 failures and one success story. So if you win five times on Tour in 500 starts, play for 20 years, you have a 1% success rate. You're an incredible player. So it's hard to replicate that much failure, that much, you know, kind of “stick to it”-ness.
Jeehae: Yeah. I mean, I've literally never won anything in golf in my life. So I'm at a sub 1% success rate.
Roberto: I’ve got a sub 1% success rate and, you know, I've had a decent little career on the PGA Tour.
Dan: I'm rolling my eyes at you two talking about how you've not won anything in golf here. Like let's just, let's just call that out for one second. This is all very relative. So I just want to call it out that it's this standard you two are holding yourself to is absurd.
Jeehae: Yeah. Well, I think I did win one AJGA qualifier. I think I won that one when I was 16. And since then, I have literally never sniffed winning a trophy at golf.
Roberto: I won a bunch of mini tour events, but they don't give you trophies. They just send you on your way.
Jeehae: Hey, winning a mini tour event in the men's game is like, I mean, you must've shot like 61, 62, whatever. Like it's really, really tough. So, good on you.
Roberto: They send you a check and then sometimes they don't send you a check. So you just never know.
Roberto: Alright back to Sportsbox AI. What are the milestones you want to hit in, say, the next year short term, and then more long-term? We talked a little bit about that, but what's the roadmap from here?
Jeehae: Yeah. We're actually slowly rolling this out to coaches. So we're starting with the coach market because one, I think they're important collaborators in helping us be successful. We want this to be the greatest tool that a coach can have in their back pocket, right? They don't need to invest $60,000 for a system in a lab setting. They can just get all the analysis they need right there on their phone. So we want this to be an amazing tool to help them teach better, learn more, and make more money.
So the first milestone for us is to get some level of penetration rate among the golf coaches in America. And after that, we want to get this out to the students so that the students and the coaches can work together really well in our app ecosystem. And therefore, make their relationship stronger.
And then by the middle of next year, we'll have a product that a golfer can use even if they don't have a golf coach. So we'll be using a lot of the data in the next six to 12 months of these coaches and students’ relationship and how the data that we're getting from that to generate those insights that are talked about- what causes missed shots, what causes somebody to hit it longer- and work that into the app so that somebody can just use the app on their own. And they'll see a bunch of insights about their golf swing even without a human coach to interpret the data for them.
Roberto: Cool.
Jeehae: Another milestone that's on my wishlist is to have this be on every golf broadcast. And if I can put that out there in the universe, I want this to be part of every Golf Channel, CBS, TNP, whatever have you. When you're watching golf. I want this to be just like Toptracer, where you're getting a lot more information and entertainment value out of every swing that they capture on _ and see Bryson swing when he sends it 40 yards right versus hits it 400 yards down the middle. What the difference was between swinging and the differences between Jon Rahm swing and Jordan Spieth swing, all of that being available right there as you're watching golf.
Dan: When they showed the breakout on the swing and they showed the ball that goes right and the ball that goes left, I see the same swing. I don't know if i’m just untrained with my eye or if the announcer's making something up, but I think this could be really helpful to actually breaking down where things kind of happen. So I like that angle a lot.
Roberto: And if you read Jeff Shackleford, he gives me my updates on golf media- apparently there's some pretty significant cost cutting on Comcast, NBC, Golf Channel. So what's better than a product that could give you in-depth 3D swing analysis on a broadcast at a super low price point. So I'm on your side on this one, Jeehae, I'm in on this. I think that Sportsbox is exciting. I think the best instructors these days are focusing on motion. It's not so much like, is the club outside your hands or inside your hands. It's like, how are you moving? And a lot of that is kind of coming to light with this TPI, Dave, this Dave guy at TPI who works with Rahm and helped my buddy Cameron Tringale gain 20 yards. Just told him, dude, you're using your body completely wrong. I think you're catching... the really smart people are on this right now, the Foleys and Mike Adams and John Tillery.
But I think it's the future of instruction and especially teaching kids how to move athletically, how to move correctly. So it's really cool. Really exciting.
Jeehae: Yeah. I cannot agree more.
Dan: All right, Jeehae, so switching gears a little bit. Those are the deeper, more in-depth questions. We'll finish off here with a couple of segments that are much more quick hits. So the premium now is on speed and more of like a first answer that pops into your mind kind of thing.
Jeehae: Okay, I'm ready.
Dan: Alright. If you weren't in the golf business, what would you be doing?
Jeehae: I would have pursued the route to become Justin Timberlake's backup dancer.
Dan: Alright. Love it. Favorite golf course you've played?
Jeehae: Oh gosh, I have to name drop here: Cypress (Point), but Yale Golf Course is a close second.
Roberto: We'll get to Yale. We'll talk about Yale. Don't worry.
Jeehae: Sounds like you have a grudge. That didn't sound like a positive...
Dan: Coolest LPGA Pro to hang out with?
Jeehae: I mean, Michelle Wie, obviously. But Tiff Joh is one of my favorites. She's just top of mind right now because she's just announced her retirement.
Roberto: Okay. I'm going to throw one in here that's not on the list. We interviewed Jane Gettys- amazing player, LPGA administrator, and she worked for the WWE after the LPGA. So we asked her which LPGA player would make the best wrestler. Go ahead.
Jeehae: Man, this is hard. I'm going to say Danielle Kang because she's just got spirit, man, and she's teeny tiny, but she can...yeah, I'll wrestle anybody with her spirit.
Roberto: So I like it.
Dan: Jane said Christina Kim. So that might be the next sort of Throwdown: Kang and Kim. What's the coolest moment in your life that only happened because of golf?
Jeehae: They're just literally... Like, every day I'm in situations where I'm wow, what did I do to be here talking to this person or doing this thing? I mean, every day. But one moment that really sticks out is when I was playing in an AT&T customer event and it's a really high-end event: Shinnecock and National back-to-back days. And you know, Topgolf being an AT&T customer, they wanted one person from Topgolf to play in this event. Generally that person is the CTO, because the CTO is the main person who decides on where to spend their money.
But they insisted on having me there. And so I was there and I thought it was going to be some big event with a hundred people. I got there, and there were three groups of foursomes. I think there was an AT&T executive in each. Very small group. And they included people like then President of McDonald's and President of Citi and all these people who flew in on private jets. And there was little ole me, Director of Strategy from Topgolf. Honestly, without golf and having done what I had done with golf, I honestly wouldn't have been there. So, yeah.
Roberto: That's great. And I bet they all wanted to play as well as you. They would have traded that jet to shoot what you shot that day. I promise you.
Dan: Enter Sportsbox AI.
Jeehae: Exactly.
Dan: What's harder: managing pro athletes or managing a business?
Jeehae: It's really funny; those are really similar. You have so many things that are out of your own control, right? Probably managing a pro athlete because it's literally a human being and you don't control their behavior, their actions, or how they perform on the golf course. And your job literally 100% depends on that person. So, whereas with business, there are a few more things under your control.
Dan: I did not expect you to give that answer. That's awesome. I completely thought you were going to say managing a business.
Jeehae: I mean, I'm just having fun right now. Like right now I think is one of the funnest times of Sportsbox. I think right now where we have a really cool product, we built all this buzz and a lot of people want to be part of it. I have a long list of- like huge long wait lists- of people who are dying to be our beta testers.
Roberto: Me. I’m one of those people.
Jeehae: Yeah. Like top 100 coaches. Literally Suzy Whaley signed up on our website to be a beta tester. So like right now, this is in the can. And once it's out there, I'm literally going to be a customer support line and doing all this stuff. Like things are going to break and, you know, it's inevitable that I'm going to have a lot more problems to solve. But right now I'm just, I'm just having fun.
Dan: Which test do you want to take again: the GMAT or Q School?
Jeehae: (Laughing) GMAT. Yeah, Q School is like something I don't wish on anybody else. I mean, anyone- not my worst enemy.
Dan: Didn’t you pass your first go around though?
Jeehae: Yeah, I made it through my first time in. But like, I mean, Q school is... at the end of the day, it's just golf. But for whatever reason, it's the worst weather week of the year. It's usually 40 degrees, 50 miles per hour wind, and rain. And you're, like, this is the most important week of my life. And it's raining and you're freezing. Your fingers are turning blue and your dad's over there freezing his butt off. Cause he's got one little shell of a jacket on because he thought it was Florida. He thought it was going to be warm. Literally the worst things happen on this week. So yeah. I don't wish it on anyone.
Roberto: That's so true. You can practice for months, weeks. And the day that second stage of Q school hits, it is 50 and windy. No matter if you're playing in south Florida, north Florida, North Carolina, it doesn't matter. It is so true. So funny you say that. Oh, my God.
Jeehae: Yeah. Or in southern Spain. I played in European Q school once. And thankfully I did well, but it literally snowed one day and there were sheets of ice on the ground at noon. Like, ice. I mean, day one got canceled because it was so horrendous. I think that was one over at the 6th hole. I thought I was like five hundred. It felt like I was shooting 500.
Roberto: That's hilarious.
Dan: Better Metro area for golf: San Francisco or New York, both cities you've lived in?
Jeehae: San Francisco 100%. I mean, they're very different. So New York is a great place for private clubs, right? There are so many great clubs you can play at and you have access to a car or a helicopter. I guess you can go to some really, really amazing places, historic places. But San Francisco is sneaky- one of the best public golf cities. So starting with the Presidio and Harding Park, all these great courses, like amazing courses you can access for 80 bucks a round if you have a resident card. And my husband started playing two and a half years ago in San Francisco. And honestly, I couldn't believe how easy it was to just go to really great courses to get him started.
Dan: As a Tour pro- actually, the question is for both of you- do you walk into a Topgolf venue trying to set a record and take a peek at what it's going to take to set that record? Or are you able to sort of distract yourself from that?
Jeehae: I am really bad at Topgolf actually. I score so poorly at a Topgolf. For whatever reason, I don't swing like myself at a Topgolf. Yeah, I don't even try to compete.
Roberto: I spend more time on the sofa behind the bay than I do in the hitting bay. It's where the wings and beer are so that's good enough for me.
Dan: I don't believe either of you, but I do go to Topgolf in Atlanta. I saw Chris Kirk at the top of the leaderboard there one time. And of course, you know, I pretended to try to get there real quick. It didn't happen. So that's where that inspiration was for that question.
Roberto: Okay, good to know. Kirk, he's one of those guys who brings his own clubs to Topgolf, probably like had a guy there stretching him out of the whole deal. Good to know. I didn't know he was that kind of guy.
Dan: Last one for me before we go to Roberto’s section. Who has the most recognizable swing on Sportsbox AI?
Jeehae: Jon Rahm. His backswing goes to here (points to waist-high), and then it goes down. Most people are like, yeah, is it going to be Jon Rahm. Yeah.
Dan: It’s the golden tee swing. Mostly forward, right?
Jeehae: Yeah, exactly.
Roberto: Alright, Jeehae, my section is called Buy or Sell. So these are just quick hits. Buy or sell? Tesla stock?
Jeehae: Buy.
Roberto: Buy or sell: simulator golf?
Jeehae: Buy.
Roberto: Buy or sell: Bitcoin?
Jeehae: Hmm. I do not know. I guess buy? My mom was like, hey, have you heard of this thing called “Dog coin” (Dogecoin)? She was in Korea. And so if my mom knows about it, it's probably something that's happening. So yeah.
Roberto: That's great. Buy or sell: the Yale golf course.
Jeehae: I have to say buy.
Roberto: So here’s the story. When I was 18, freshman in college, we played the east regional at Yale and I thought it was an absolute dumpster fire. I couldn’t stand the golf course. Now, again, I wasn't as worldly and well-traveled as I am now. So I'm dying to go back and play it because the photos look cool, and I've learned a little bit more about golf courses since then. But I have a teammate- we still talk about it like- is that course any good? And he'll be, yeah, it's awesome. Just like Yale is awesome.
That’s my Yale story, so I was dying to ask you that.
Jeehae: I really like it. It's one of my favorites. I love tree-lined golf courses and it's got its own quirks.
Roberto: So cool. Buy or sell: music on the golf course?
Jeehae: It really depends. Usually a buy, unless I'm trying to play seriously.
Roberto: Okay. What kind of music?
Jeehae: Nineties pop and Snake and Brittany.
Roberto: Buy or sell: getting an MBA and then going on to work in sports.
Jeehae: Oh, a hundred percent buy.
Roberto: Alright. Well, you passed our tests. You passed the GMAT, Q school. You did it all today on The Course Record Show. So...
Jeehae: Awesome.
Dan: Thanks so much for being on. Really enjoyed the conversation. Best of luck with Sportsbox AI. You’ve got two fans rooting for you here and thanks for being on the show.
Jeehae: Yeah. Thank you guys. Good luck with this show.
Takeaways
Roberto: Alright, Dan, takeaways. What's the first thing you thought of when we wrapped up the conversation with Jeehae?
Dan: On a very personal level, I sort of saw the role that golf played in Jeehae’s life and the way it oscillated. Super personable to me. I played junior golf growing up, had a low handicap, but then I quit in my junior year of high school and didn't play until I was 25 or 26 again. Now, I wasn't ever aspiring to be a pro, but the fact that she quit in her sophomore and junior years in college, came back to play her senior year, rolled right through Q school and made it (to the LPGA) her first time around was super interesting to me. And now she plays for fun and she's kicking it with friends like I am. But I'm curious, going back to the actual playing, and asking you as a pro, does the fact that she didn't need golf that badly- could that have helped her and things like Q school and getting through some of those high pressure packed moments? What's your take on that?
Roberto: That's a good question. I think that there are two schools of thought, whether you need it or you don't. Some people who've been highly successful in sports and other things will give you the old line, throw your backup plan out the window. If you have a backup plan, you're preparing to fail and I get it. And I think that back-against-the-wall can lead to great performance.
On the flip side, you have people who feel like, Hey, what's the worst thing that could happen here at Q school? Right? And that could've helped Jeehae. She could have said, I have an Ivy League degree, I'm 22 years old, I'm going to Q school. And of course there's pressure because you want to play well. And you know, the first tee shot- that par three over water- of course there are nerves. But you could also step back and say, I don't need this. I will still be fine. So there are two schools of thought. And then, you know, some people use their faith in a similar way. Webb Simpson or Russell Henley, I think specifically during this year's US Open, said that my identity as a person is tied up in my family and my faith and I don't need golf. And that frees me up to go out and just play to play great. And that's a cool way to think about the game as well.
Dan: Yeah, that's fascinating. I could see it cutting both ways.
So fast forwarding to today. It sure sounds like Jeehae is trying to help a lot of golfers to get better with her coaching technology and Sportsbox AI, which I think is super cool. And the technology in the coaching space isn't super new, but I like this new take on it.
What are your thoughts on technology in performance improvement in general and how it's evolving? You've been closer to it than I have certainly.
Roberto: Yeah, I think like a lot of things in golf, you have to split the conversation into Tour players and amateur golfers. So how does this 3D technology help a Tour player and his instructor? I think it helps a lot. Tour players have their coaches come on the road where you don't have a fancy camera system. You don't have GEARS for sure- 3D. Now you do. Sportsbox brings that to the driving range of PGA Tour events. And that can be very helpful.
Flipping to the amateur side. I mean, I'll turn the question back to you. I think it can be helpful. I think it has a little bit less value in that a 20 handicap or a 15 handicap needs some basic instruction to help them improve. That being said, golfers love gear, golfers love tech. They don't need a new driver to help them play better, but they want one. So I do think there's going to be demand for this product in the market. I think it's cool.
Dan: I was surprised that it was very much positioned as not “death to the instructor,” but as a friend to the instructor. Right? I don't know why I had that assumption that it would be a replacement for instructor versus an aid. But once I kind of heard that take on it, and you two discussing that specific element of it, I was really bought in on the idea because I don't know enough about my golf swing or the golf swing period to put it on camera and then find out, here are the things that are making me do what I'm doing wrong. Right? I can put it up against a Golf Digest picture and know if that's good or bad aesthetically, but I can't tell you, okay, stuff starts going wrong at this point. And from here I can't recover. So I kind of liked that idea of it. And we always joke on this podcast of how I'm up in Boston and my season's really short.
So as a supplement for a very long winter and a chance to do something like this and kind of stay active with the game, I like it. It keeps my head in the game all year. Especially when I can't get out to the range as easily. So I really liked that angle that this brings to the table.
Roberto: Yeah. And I think you're on point: step one of Sportsbox does not replace the instructor. You use the 3D model and an instructor interprets it for you. Step two, kind of does replace the instructor when you have all the data on the motion and then you tie it to shot and club data, like she said, and then the machine learning or AI starts to build the cause and effect relationships of okay,10 handicap, that slice is, you know, turns his right shoulder straight over the top. All of a sudden, if the app can tell you that, do you still need the instructor? So I'm not sure that it doesn't eventually go full Matrix on these golf coaches. What do you think?
Dan: Yeah, it might come down to what the player wants, right? You're right. It might be able to go full Matrix. But as someone who just took a lesson a few weeks ago and really liked it, I really kind of enjoyed the chance for real-time feedback, getting the feels right. Having a conversation about it, putting it in analogies- that delivery of the instruction, even though it could have been the same thing that the app was spitting out was kind of cool.
Roberto: Yeah. And I think it speaks to human nature more generally. If an app and AI can diagnose my shoulder pain, I still want to talk to a doctor. I still want to ask him, like, why when I move my arm like this does it hurt? What is actually torn in there? This is a similar thing. Like you said, you had a great experience connecting with an instructor, human to human, just like Chad says he has great relationships with some of his students. Chad Parker. That's the bare case for an app replacing a PGA pro.
Dan: Well, my teacher has a cool Aussie accent. So maybe that's a good feature request for Jeehae to put some good Aussie accents in the app for whatever voiceover she's doing. That might make it a hit.
Roberto: I mean, what situation is not helped by an Australian accent? Name me one.
Dan: You'd have to ask a Brit for that. I can't think of one.
Roberto: Nice.
Dan: Alright. But Sportsbox AI was not Jeehae’s first foray into the golf and technology business. I was fascinated by her conversation on her experience at TopGolf. For sure, this is the number one thing on my list of if I could have done something else in my career and kept it with golf, it would have been TopGolf. So I love TopGolf, but I also hate it from that jealousy perspective. And I see it as such a cool thing in bringing so many people into the sport and getting a very low pressure experience with golf. What are your thoughts, RC? Is this a good or bad thing for the game in general?
Roberto: I think it's a great entry point into golf and very similarly to how the First Tee can bring in junior players. But it's that next step that's challenging, is getting people consistently to a golf course to play nine holes or play 18 holes. TopGolf is going to have the same challenges. Going to TopGolf once a quarter with your buddies and having beers is great. Somebody who's never touched a club or hit a ball does that- do they take that second step of buying a set of clubs and finding a place to go play nine holes every couple of weeks? I don't know, but it's a hot space. It really, really fascinates me. You've got private simulator clubs. You've got a new place in Alpharetta here called Fairway Social. The cost of simulators is coming down to where you can have one in your own basement in Boston, let's say. So alternate golf facilities are a hot space. And TopGolf- I can't remember if it's 10 acres. It's a big lot that you need, right? For the simulator models, you don't need 10 acres of dirt. So I don't know how that all plays out, but I'm definitely interested to see.
Dan: Yeah, I've been checking out the rumors that they've been talking about putting up TopGolf here in Boston. It hasn't happened despite some rumors. 10 acres is hard to come by in a spot that's also close to a Metro area. So it's a tricky, tricky real estate play for sure.
Roberto: Yeah. But how perfect was TopGolf for Jeehae? She comes out of business school. She had a lifetime of experience in golf. She's the right age for the target customer and demographic of TopGolf. Obviously super intelligent. Like, what a great role for her. And she said she learned so much and had mentors. I just thought that was a great fit. And she was very thankful for that time in her career. And I just kept thinking, my gosh, that was a great win for TopGolf. And for Jeehae.
Dan: And a great pivot into the tech business, which she eventually embraced, right, as a founder anyway? So I agree with you- what a great and inspired choice with so many possibilities at her fingertips.
I have to think that the one thing you didn't mention that I think could have been also really important for her experience is the time that she spent managing Michelle Wie. Right. She'd already known a little bit about the golf business from a very different angle, granted. But having that coming in to say, okay, I played in the LPGA, obviously. I've managed one of the top brands in the game and to be able to take that and launch something completely new with that as her foundation, talk about picking a race you can win, but still be challenged by it. I think it's a key to great careers. I think she really embraced that in that chapter of her career.
Roberto: And that time forming corporate sponsorships, connecting Michelle Wie to other great brands. She was director of brand strategy at TopGolf, I think was one of her titles. So very similar- great preparation at kind of a micro level, because you just need somebody to buy into one person, which is Michelle Wie, versus buy into a corporation or a concept like TopGolf. So I agree. Her career arc has been very cohesive despite being very unique.
Dan: Hey, let's pull a thread on the alternate golf facilities thing. Jeehae made these comments that we didn't dive into too much, but this is a good time to do it now around how half of the world's driving ranges are in Japan and Korea. And I've heard stories about people in Japan- quadruple decker ranges and people hitting balls into the night- and that's how they get their handicap. Like a pro comes in- maybe he or she has an Aussie accent, I don't know- and gives this golfer a handicap and that's their relationship with golf. And they go back the next day to the driving range and try to bring that range handicap lower. We're doing this as the Olympics are being played right now in Japan with golf still featuring of course.
And I wonder whether the Olympics in golf will have an impact on the game's popularity. And in those countries specifically, do you think it's going to mean more ranges and people doing it that way? Or do you think people will actually quote-unquote graduate to the golf club experience as a result? You've traveled the world a little bit. I'm curious on your take here.
Roberto: I’ve only played in China once. I've never been to Japan. It's my number one place I want to go. Tokyo specifically. But I think the big driver was- the Tour had a big role in pushing golf into the Olympics- was to grow the game in that part of the world. I think the Chinese government for a while... golf had a big growth period in China.
And there was a time where it was, I think, kind of in the cross hairs of the Chinese government. So if you have the government say 1.3 billion people can't play golf anymore, or they're not going to support it, you're killing a fifth of your potential growth market. When they put it in the Olympics- the Chinese are super obsessed with the Olympics and winning medals and having a worldwide stature through the Olympics- I think it cemented golf's future in China. So I think, I think it was a big, a big part of it.
Dan: I did not know about that relationship between China and golf. That's, uh, that's super interesting and raises all sorts of questions for a different day.
Roberto: That's The Course Record Show though. You know, one day you're talking about Sportsbox AI. The next obvious guest now is somebody who's an expert on US-Chinese relations. That's what's great about this show. That's the business of golf or the geopolitics of golf. Let's get it all on here.
Dan: Yeah, we'll get Xi Jinping on the line for the next episode.
Roberto: Is anybody at the State Department available to call us up? Alright. What were you saying about the ranges? Yeah.
Dan: Well, this range thing fascinates me. Right? I get that land is hard to come by for a course and let alone a range too. But do you think this range culture has potential to grow? And does that sustain a golfing population in your opinion?
Roberto: I think it does. I've seen it in my neighborhood. The golf course that we've talked about before on this show, the Bobby Jones. Five years ago, they renovated it. They went from 18 holes to nine and they added a driving range and it's a really nice range and it is packed all day long. And I think that is proof close to home for me that you have a population that has two extra hours a week and will go hit golf balls. And I think that's great. So it doesn't surprise me that you can engage golfers through a driving range experience.
Dan: Yeah. I agree. I asked the question knowing what I thought my answer was, but it was great to get your take too. Cause you've seen it from a different angle. My wife's not a golfer, but she loves going to the range and bringing some beers and just hitting the ball around a little bit. She's game for that experience. Maybe that's the stripped down TopGolf model that they obviously souped up a lot.
It's a fun way, I think, to get people exposed to the game and it takes some of the starch off the collar, as our friend and past guest, Brian Ferris, would say.
Roberto: Yeah, it does that. And it's something you can do by yourself. Or with somebody. If you and I are going to go play tennis, we have to be at a very similar level to have a good tennis match. That's the big thing about golf and the driving range experience specifically. If you want to go to the YMCA and play basketball, if there's a bunch of college kids in there, it's the wrong game for you. If it's the over-60 crowd, it's the wrong game. It's very hard to find something you can do on your own or with one other person and golf does that, especially going just to the range.
Dan: Totally agree.
Roberto: We just gotta get the terminology, right? Real golfers say I'm going to hit balls. That's what they say. And my five-year-old daughter, like, two years ago, she came in. I was, Hey, do you want to go to the golf course? Or what do you want to do? And she was like, we could go hit some balls. And I was succeeding. I am succeeding as a father.
Dan: Call it what you will. I'm just glad that I don't have a handicap based on the range. Cause that would lose me a lot of bets on the actual course.
Roberto:You're flush on the range?
Dan: I’m better on the range. Uh, not great.
Roberto: I am too.
Dan: But It's a confidence boost for sure.
Roberto: Yeah. Dead flat and you get in a rhythm. That's the thing about the range. The key to playing good golf on the courses is to get in a rhythm. It's so much easier to do on a driving range.
Dan: Well, Roberto, I think that gives us a wrap here on episode seven. Awesome conversation with Jeehae. Thank you, Jeehae, for the time. Hope the listeners enjoyed it. And if you did, please subscribe to The Course Record Show.
Roberto: Thanks for listening. Subscribe on apple podcast, if you can. And look forward to following Jeehae's career and work at Sportsbox AI.
