#9: Eric Stepanian (The Fliers Club)

Eric Stepanian is the founder of The Fliers Club, an international travel and private club experience designed by a collective of golfers who are inspired by the discovery of diverse courses, cultures & time-honored traditions of the game. Prior to founding The Fliers Club, Eric worked in partnerships for The PGA of America, luxury clothing brands and travel companies. He’s an avid golfer and connoisseur of the game.

Read the interview below or listen on Spotify, Apple, Google, Stitcher or Amazon. Enjoy!

Dan: Eric, welcome to The Course Record Show. 

Eric: Dan, Roberto, thanks for having me. 

Dan: Let's jump right in. We'll get to what the Fliers Club is and isn't very soon, but I gotta ask you this question to get us going. In a sport that seems to be getting more and more technical, you made a bet in the opposite direction, building a business that focuses on the soul of the game, playing on human emotion and sense of adventure. How do you reconcile where the game seems to be going and where you and the Fliers Club seem to be going?

Eric: I think we've spent a lot of time with this and a lot of the fundamental piece of it came from our experiences in travel and travel golf where we were over there, really just kind of celebrating the experience, the walk, the sounds, the nuance of the clubhouse, the history and tradition that surround these golf clubs and realized really quickly that it really wasn't about the score. It wasn't about what you shot. It was less about what you shot & more about who you shot it with. Less about checking a box and more about understanding why a golf course became a box to check. Does that make sense?

And for us, we kind of brought that back into the Club and that mantra and, you know, it really is the centerpiece of how we find individuals who are good fits for the Club. It really is not designed to be a really highly competitive experience from a golf perspective.

I think we- all joking aside- we tend to have some ex-pats. So, you know, highly competitive players who come back and have been reborn into the game in that regard where they can enjoy. I'm kind of one of those recovering guys as well. I played golf in school. But there's a point where you realize, uh, that your trajectory is not going to be perhaps where Roberto landed on the PGA Tour.

And there’s this kind of not backpedaling, but for me, I didn't touch a club after I stopped playing in school for about five years. So I had this reset and almost this relearning and understanding why. So it really is close to home for me. And really kind of that centerpiece of our Club.

Roberto: I think that's interesting. Something that keeps popping up on this show is why people play golf. I'm so fascinated by that. I've always played for a very singular reason and other people have different reasons, so that you jumped right into that is cool. When you're creating a member experience, what are the major components of that for the Fliers Club? You start with a blank whiteboard. What are the three boxes or one or two or three boxes you draw at the top of that board?

Eric: Again, kind of stemming from our international experiences and how we created those and crafted those, I think from a member experience on the domestic side of things, we here in the United States- we tend to look for those historic clubs, the ones that have interesting architecture, maybe aren't the long championship golf courses that will stretch over 7,500 yards. But maybe they're a little bit more quirky, perhaps have hosted something in the past. You know, maybe aren't relevant in this day and age, but they still remain with this certain charm and sparkle that exists when you walk into the clubhouse that you just can't recreate at a new golf club. So we typically gravitate towards those experiences.

But just knowing that our membership celebrates that description, it tends to be around that. So bringing in those like-minded individuals to enjoy it, creating a format that isn't your stroke play kind of gross stroke play, whether it's Stableford or quota, having a fun skins game, really kind of centered around that camaraderie.

So it's really kind of similar to this conversation. You know, three guys post around having a beer, talking about the game and you know, that fireside chat or that conversation post golf really is what Fliers ends up being, and golf is just a vehicle to drive that conversation. 

Roberto: What does your membership like to drink after the round? Is it like a big geeking out on bourbon, beer, wine?

Eric: Yeah, I think it really depends on the day. I mean, I know that there's a whole kind of corner of the membership that loves bourbon and scotch. Others who love wine and peak out on kind of those IPAs. And so I think it just really depends on the pleasure and then the classic golf drinks, you know, your transfusion or dark and stormy milkshake, that kind of thing. Yeah, we don't discriminate on that front. We celebrate it all.

Dan: Choice of beverage aside, what's the most popular topic of conversation amongst the members? Is it the history of these clubs? Is it business? What do you see as the binding glue of like, what's the first thing that comes out when people sit down for that beverage?

Eric: I think if they've just played a golf course, I think looking back, what was your favorite hole? You know, what was your favorite aspect of a golf course? Whether it be the fescue, maybe it was a short par four, short par three, long par three, the clubhouse. Did you see this here?

And then just also it spiders out into these conversations of other experiences that members have played these (other) golf courses and they almost kind of compare notes. We always refer to golf as this journey and you're collecting experiences throughout and less about, again, checking that box and more about just being there and immersed in it.

And so I think there are a lot of comparisons. You naturally, as humans in general, we try to just naturally compare to things. People want to understand what something else is based on what else has existed in the past. We do it with music. We do it with art. We do it with any of this subjective piece. So I think a lot of that conversation comes up in those post round chats.

Dan: So if you had to boil it down, is the Fliers Club in the business of golf, business of travel, business of access to forbidden fruit, if you will, or do you see it as something else altogether? 

Eric: I see it as something else altogether. I see it as a community: a club of like-minded individuals, and I feel that golf, travel, access, experience are all vehicles to drive that conversation amongst the members, shared or otherwise. And it could be anything. The conversations deviate just from golf and travel and access. They could be about watches. It could be about cars. It could be about food and wine. Kind of the lifestyle that encompasses all golf. And what on the periphery is on top of mind for members themselves. So I think that's all in the realm. So really kind of curating that community is really what Fliers is all about. And all this other stuff- the golf, the travel, the access- really fuels that fire.

Roberto: That's cool. One thing you have to manage, Eric, on two sides is access. Let's carry on that theme. On one side, the membership- people that you're surrounded by- and on the second is the facility and the clubs. So let's take those one at a time. On the people side, are your members looking to cut loose, get away for a weekend, get away on a long trip? Are they looking to grow their personal networks and business networks?  And then secondly, what's the secret knock on the door that gets you into the cool places? 

Eric: Yeah. I think different members are there for different reasons. It's a bit of cutting loose. I think it's a bit of again, collecting an experience of not only celebrating the golf course or going to play, but meeting other members. For the most part, I think, one of the things that we look for... we have our application process that is not based on financial. Our application process is based on your character. So we really look for those individuals who have this idea. They mention community. They mention the human aspect of things. 

As soon as someone comes in and is like, oh, I just want to play this course and I really just want the access. It ends up ultimately not being a great fit because they ended up being relatively selfish members. They're out for themselves. They're not out for the membership as a whole. So I think whether it be personal or business, it's a great way to meet. We have a number of different individuals inside the club who own small golf brands, large golf brands, are in the influence space inside of golf in general.

It doesn't take too much to figure that out and who those folks are. But when we have our, just for example, with our member directory, we don't put the individual's home club on there. You can find it. But it's not on the front page. You know, we don't want people reaching out and being like, oh, this person's a member at X club. I'll reach out as like, hey, I just happened to be in town. Well, of course you're in town. You want to play that golf course. So we really try to avoid that and really try to curate that organic relationship that we know that golf tends to drive. It's a real equalizer on that stage.  

Roberto: So yeah, and I think that people, whether it's business or personal network, that's the same: people like to do business with people that they like or that they trust. And then secondly, the authentic nature of it. 

I have a friend who is from Ohio and he played a member-guest in New Jersey. I don't even remember the club, but he called me the next week. And he was like, oh man, this club was amazing. Like I was there for three days, played the whole member-guest. Nobody asked me what I did for a living, which is so refreshing sometimes. Right? We all use golf for business and it's great. You can really evaluate someone's character and how they treat people and how they interact. But on the other hand, there's a time and a place to just go out and play your nine hole match and the member-guest, not needing to know what that person does for a living.

It's just not relevant to a certain situation. So it's a tough balance to strike. 

Eric: Yeah. And we kind of take that piece, you know, what you just described in the member-guest feeling where no one's asking you what you do for a living, and then assuming what your bank account looks like.

The same thing happens with our member application process and how we go through those conversations. Really at the end of the day, we want to know if you're a good person. We don't really care that you make, you know, $50,000 a year or you make $500,000 a year. That's irrelevant in our mind. You know, we're really trying to just establish that character and it really is refreshing, like you said, when you get onto a golf course or in a situation where all that baggage, if you will, kind of falls by the wayside and then you just play golf and that's the common language between the two or four people. 

Dan: Sorry Roberto, if it comes down to character I don't like your odds of getting in. 

Roberto: That’s not nice, Dan.

Dan: It wasn't nice. 

Eric: Well, your second question to answer the access piece of things. A lot with us is, you know, the celebration- is celebration of the golf courses that we're going to. We’re not a big outing type of experience. So it's small groups but a lot of...really our conversations with the golf courses, they originate with members, members of the Fliers Club. And we're never cold-calling. Having worked for the PGA myself, and just being in golf for a number of years. And, uh, a few of the guys on our team, you know, it ends up being like, Hey, this is, this is what Fliers is all about. And you know, it works for, if there's a member it's sponsored, you know, the process behind a private club.

And a lot of these places don't want to be on lists. So it's very much, you know, a quiet day to bring out and it works for our membership from that perspective. 

Roberto: That's cool. When you were describing the profile earlier, a name popped into my head from last summer. I was in Minnesota for that 3M event. And I went to the Minikahda Club and Bobby Jones won one of the four legs- maybe not one of the four legs- but he won a US Open there. But totally short, quirky course, nicest people in the world, just showed me the history room, let us do whatever we wanted. Totally would fit your profile and just popped into my head.

Eric: Yeah, and they exist all over the country. I think with the advanced- we've talked about the technical side of things- the advancement of the golf ball and the equipment and the game itself, everything's getting longer. Players are stronger, you can point to any which way of it.

And in an effort to link them, you're finding these golf courses serve a purpose. In a member-guest situation, it doesn't have to be 7,500 yards. Maybe in a PGA Tour situation, it probably needs to be for multiple reasons of just sheer space, right? To accommodate an event of that caliber and just from a spectator standpoint versus you've got nine flites in a member-guest, and something to be said about that match play format, where things are short and quirky. And it's exciting.

Dan: You talked about the ethos of the Fliers Club and the experience that you're trying to curate in every interaction with your members, but you rely on some outside parties too on the travel side, the clubs themselves. How do you work with those partners so that they “get” the concept that you're trying to deliver? And how do you control that while also letting them do their thing? Talk about that interplay.

Eric: So on the international stage we've been to all the places that we offer our members; we've personally been on the ground to meet whether it be the secretary play, the golf course, sleep in the hotel, eat the food. Go to the non-golf experiences, off-course experiences, whether it be like a whiskey tasting or an oyster experience, or, you know, falconry. I'm just using the UK as an example at this point. But we go through and figure out where we see it. And then we design an experience with those elements coming in and understanding, okay, this golf course would be great to finish with, or would be great to start with- a very cool opportunity for them to walk through the clubhouse and see how it was built.

You know, kind of looking at that holistic view of it and less about, again, there's definitely golf course integrity, but we're looking at that whole experience. So we trust in that. Then we work with transportation providers. We work with the people from restaurants and hotels.

So there's a lot of human interaction that really ends up being the glue that brings all of it together. Whether it be your caddy, your driver, your concierge on the ground. You know that piece- there's a lot of trust that goes into it. We know that travel in general tends to be unpredictable in moments. But I think that the best part about travel for us, we can plan and we can put a choke hold on an itinerary and just try to do it. But when you create space, the things that you don't plan for are often things that you remember the most. 

Roberto: That's cool. All right. And that line of thinking- things you can plan for- when COVID hit, most travel shut down overnight, obviously had an effect on your business. What was the first move you made in this dramatically different world?

Eric: Yeah, COVID was interesting for travel. I mean, I had a number of colleagues that were spirited competitors who were no longer in the business. It's kinda gone through and we've had an opportunity to just share a story more from us. Fliers Club began in 2016, myself and Omar Rawlings who goes by the handle #myophoto on Instagram, spent about a month in the UK and Ireland.

And from that point, we really captured imagery and stored it away and were able to share that imagery over the course of 18 months while we were not only dreaming about travel. Atypically with your typical travel company, they're always like, okay, this is the image. And here's the call to action. We want you to jump on the page and book a trip. 

You know, that was not us. We were very much, the first rule about fight club is don't talk about fight club. And we were like, let's jump in. We'll tell the stories. And when it returns, it will return. But we started really bringing into the fold, the individuals that were drawn to the stories that we're telling around the imagery about the golf clubs that we were portraying. And that part really helped us continue to build our membership. And then we went to merchandise as well. We've had the logo of the flying hare known as Harry. But we just didn't have an opportunity to really share it.

And we started putting it on a few different brands that we had seen around the world walking into different pro shops. So merchandise became a real focal point for us while we weren't traveling. So we really started to build and snowballed those curated drops. And we operate on a scarcity model in that everything is limited that we put out.

So our members and visitors have come to know that when we put it out, if you don't get it, it's probably not going to be there tomorrow. We definitely tease it ahead of time. So you see it. Uh, and then, and then folks will jump on. So, you know, I think between the merchandise and the marketing and kind of sharing the brand ethos in general was the biggest pivot that we were able to accomplish and be successful at and really helped us build our membership from that standpoint while others were really trying to figure out what they were going to do, because travel is a very cash forward business where you're taking deposits and you're placing it to execute said trip for individuals. But that balance for those individuals isn't typically due until 90 days before they travel. And if they're not traveling, that revenue, it's being deferred to the following year. For us, it really worked out well, and in a moment of uncertainty became crystal clear that we were in the right direction. 

Roberto: That's awesome. 

Dan: So with travel returning now, did that gap give you a chance to reflect back on things you want to do differently going forward with your next trips? Anything, any big ah-has there as you sat back and thought about it more?

Eric: No, I think it really just reinforced how we originally built trips through that kind of what we would call an educational lens. You know, that it wasn't always just about checking the box of the championship golf course. It was about celebrating the ones that you perhaps never heard of.

And building those in and building up off course experiences as well. We know that typically, and I've said this before, that travel golf tends to be male dominated. It tends to be American driven. And in that American kind of lens, they want to play 36 holes a day, they want to drink their face off, go to the hotel, rinse, repeat seven days, sleep when you get home type of experience. We've all been on that trip or we've heard of that trip. But for us, we were really seeking a little bit more balance of both the cultural experience in seeking that authenticity in immersion with the local culture that has surrounded the golf courses for hundreds of years.

So really for us, it really reinforced that what we were doing prior to COVID was a pretty unique outlook on it. And frankly, how we started to really build the Club piece of things. It came out of our individuals who were traveling with us prior, wanted to know who else was traveling with the Fliers Club.

And so we were able to open up those communication lines, and we really saw that like-minded ethos start to bubble up. And then we started to open it up to individuals who had not traveled with us, who wanted to be a part of the Club who shared in that ethos. And that's when it really started to snowball.

Roberto: I have not been on that trip that you talked about, but I have a lot of friends who have, and every time I do like a one-night golf trip or two-night, I have no idea how they do it. Like no clue how they could walk that much and drink that much. It’s unbelievable.

Dan Yeah. It hurts.

Eric: I mean, it's a marathon and they come back exhausted, gassed and they probably couldn't tell you too much about it. Outside of that they played, you know, 14 rounds of golf in six days. Like it takes a toll on your body. But we really wanted to work with individuals who wanted to celebrate perhaps a little less aggressive pace. And that really kind of pushed us towards college teams and development offices that support those teams.

Because it was again about that kind of educational piece. But we found that there was a whole subset of individuals who were really looking for that experience. 

Roberto: Tell me a little bit more about that. When you say college teams, are you talking about college golfers or alumni associations trying to raise money? Tell us a little more about that.

Eric: Yeah. So college teams- we work with D1, D2, D3, in addition to our Club side of things, and that's where Fliers really started with teams and on the travel piece. And so kind of navigating NCAA rules and just kind of working with them to take an account and build something that the school could get on board with.

Each program was based and tailored to the school itself. So D1 programs know that they have to pay for everybody to go, has to be funded from the school. Whereas D3, it's often self-funded. And then you have kind of the alumni that gets mixed in. There's a dynamic there. There are alumni groups that support. So it's a really unique opportunity. And the way we built trips was conducive to those individuals traveling. 

Roberto: That's really cool. 

Dan: Our last interview was with a college coach who was talking about the NIL. Does that play out in your business at all? Does that change anything for you or not really? 

Eric: You know, it's interesting to hear that the NCAA in general, like right now, so most people don't realize that as a division one athlete, if you're playing golf, you can only travel once but every four years outside the US to do something like that. So they limit that and the reason why they do that cause initially, on the surface I was like, why would you do that? Why would you stifle somebody's opportunity to go? And really it came down to recruiting and being, okay, the schools, it's an equalizer from a haves and have nots, where big programs have a huge amount of funding they could afford to go every year versus some schools still can't afford to go that are in the division one category.

Limiting that once every four years (for D1). In D3, it's once every three. So, I don't know if the NIL really affects it. I'll be curious to see how it goes. But for the most part this is a real treat and a real opportunity for coaches to showcase that they're thinking beyond their students, their student athletes just playing at school and winning a match or something like that.

They're thinking about the golfer journey. Like we talked about in the beginning of this chat, it's part of it. You know, the first time that you play abroad, you realize that golf is played differently over there. It's more on the ground. There's wind. It's hard. It's fast. It's brown. It's not green. It's not lush. You're not flying the ball to the hole. There aren't any trees. There's no depth perception that perhaps once was. So it's a real- not only an educational opportunity from a history and tradition, but an educational opportunity to understand that there's different ways to play the game.

And I think that kind of diverse outlook is what attracts coaches and programs to sharing that. It's just, you know, a different place to play the game. 

Roberto: That's awesome. And great to learn a different way to play the game or to see a different way, and then spend time with different people. If you include alumni on those trips, now you're hitting it out of the park big time. Because connecting one generation to the next, especially around a college golf team or a university in general, is awesome. So that's really, really great. 

Eric: Yeah. It's golf again as the common language. And as an opportunity to engage for alumni in general coming back. It is a long-term engagement play. And, you know, we work with a number of different universities whether we're working with the golf team or working with just the alumni association. So, it's a pretty compelling piece of what we do. 

Roberto: Dan, you want to go? A couple of Georgia Tech guys hanging out with the college kids overseas, buddy. I’m in.

Dan: Well, I don't know. So long as we're not signing up for the big bender, I'm all in. 

Roberto: It probably goes a little differently when you have a bunch of 19 year old kids that are under the protection of the University, it's probably a little less Jameson involved in those trips.

Dan: Yeah, I don’t know, I don’t know about that.  Alright, let's go back in time a little bit. The Fliers Club, Eric, is not your first foray into this line of work. Tell me a little bit about your background and the lessons you learned along the way that have led you to founding the Fliers Club. 

Eric: Yeah. It's been a unique journey. I keep using that word, but it really is describing that piece. I mean, I'm a big believer that what you do in your career is driven by what you love and just trying to put yourself in that position to do what you love. And ultimately it should work out. You hope. You remain optimistic or at least I do.

So yeah, I played golf at the University of Delaware. I played there for two years. And I think I mentioned earlier that I stopped playing. I was completely burned out. Got to the point where from a golf perspective, you play junior golf, you play it through high school and then into college and you know, that piece. So I have this deeper appreciation for the college golfer. 

From there, I went to work for a larger travel company here in Boston. They’re a big educational travel company. And I learned a lot with them and helped them start their golf program. Unfortunately the way that we looked at it and when I was getting into the travel piece of things,  I was learning a lot, but really what they wanted to do is like these big volume trips with very low touch.

And we know that golf is small and high touch, right? People want a little more hand-holding, a little bit more bespoke and so we spent a number of years there and then moved over to the PGA and working for the New England section as tournament director. So that's when I really learned the green grass side of things, understanding how the relationships inside of private clubs, but also public, all worked and everything from the merchandise to the execution. We in New England always joke that it's like 12 months of golf in a seven month season where you've got guys who are just rabid about playing. And it's a hundred day war between Memorial Day and Labor Day that really ends up, and it's like a faucet. It turns off right after. 

But New England in general just tends to be a really great Fall golf area. It is quieter, but the golf courses are just Primo with the cooler temperatures and running hard and fast. So, initially perhaps how they were designed. But yeah, so with the PGA of America, I really learned that piece of things.

I worked with partnerships on that piece of things, with the section and, whether it be on a national or a regional part. Working with those kinds of agreements and there's a human side of it, right? It's not all transactional and it's a relationship of give and take. So I really learned how to navigate that piece of things. 

And from there I left and began Fliers. The Fliers at the start was really part-time for me and jumped into kind of the travel piece again. And really working it's kind of travels kind of like, I guess it equated to like, you know, a vineyard, right? When you plant grapes, you have to wait a certain amount of years before those grapes mature enough where you can then put them into bottles and ferment them and have a product. And travel's really the same way- you're building relationships. One trip comes back and realizes, oh, that was amazing, they tell somebody else.

It's very referral-based. So as that was going, I was doing some consulting and working with other brands. I worked with a luxury Alpine sportswear brand here in Boston, kind of parallel to it helping them with partnerships and working with some of their placements, like getting a great partnership with the St. Regis hotels out in Aspen and Park City and working with the US Ski Team. So there was a very large kind of partnership activations that I was working on. But I learned a lot about the luxury piece and how nothing inside that model... merchandise never goes on sale. And you never see it discounted or it doesn't set very long.

It often doesn't hang around. So we took bits and bobs from everything of this journey, whether it be creating experiences from a domestic standpoint to the travel piece of things to now the merchandise. We brought it all  into what Fliers is today and it's been amazing, not only from that, but just to see the branding.

We spent a really long time on the branding piece of things, choosing our logos, our colors, the hero images. And we geeked out. We spent almost a year working with two different designers to create the logos and then have them come together. And then how they presented and in what formats they presented in. Where you see certain things in the digital sense, but you see the rabbit and an embellished sense. So building that kind of brand book, if you will, of how it's portrayed in the outside world. So that's kind of been the journey for me, with Fliers. And again, when we hit COVID, it really just started to snowball. And it's been an exciting journey thus far. 

Roberto: Let me ask you to explain something to our listeners that I think even avid golfers confuse- PGA Tour versus PGA of America. Can you tell them, give this PGA of America 1-0-1 and then, what is one thing that most people don't know about the PGA of America and the role they play in golf every day?

Eric: Yeah. So it's funny, first thing you tell people that you work for the PGA of America, they're like, oh, what's Tiger Woods like? And you know, it's always funny in that regard. I think the biggest difference, they were once under one roof and I'm not sure the exact year that they ultimately split, but the Tour went one way and the PGA of America went the other way. The PGA of America is the jurisdiction that really refers to the green grass professionals that work inside the golf clubs around the country. They're divided up into sections throughout, and it's a member-run organization. So the oldest ones are here in the Northeast, you've got the Mid section in the mid Atlantic and the Northeast or the New England section. You've got both greengrass professionals who are playing, who have the ability to play in a major championship. So most people don't realize that the PGA Championship is the PGA of America championship. Not the PGA Tour Championship. 

But the one thing that I think most people do not realize is that the PGA of America actually are the ones who run the Ryder Cup. And not the PGA Tour. I think that's one of the biggest facts and takeaways. People are like, whoa, really? I thought it was a PGA Tour. All the players come from the PGA Tour. And the reality is it's the PGA. 

Roberto: Now all the players come from Florida, the European players and the American players. 

Eric: Exactly. One spot, one spot in Florida. Yeah. 

Roberto: No, I think that's very helpful. And you did a good job explaining that. They need to change the name of...the PGA Tour is not going to change its name, but PGA of America does so much. And like you said, it's broken out into sections. Georgia has its own section, but then Gulf states have a section that covers Alabama, Louisiana, Mississippi. Like you said, you have the New England section that covers a few states and it's a really, really cool organization.

Eric: And I forget, I talked to one PGA professional recently saying that, and I think I get this right, is that they are a “golf professional,” not a “professional golfer.” It is often confused. And so many of these individuals, perhaps they got into the industry because they love the game, but then they realize that they’re suddenly a merchandiser. They teach lessons, they run events. They are psychologists, they are soundboards for, you know, everybody in the club. They own the shop. They don't own the shop. It's amazing the list of what the responsibilities are and it differs from each club. You talk to a PGA professional who says that my club wants me behind the counter. They want me in the shop. They want me extremely visible. And other clubs want you out on the golf course, playing with members in that experience.

And you hope it's more of the latter where you're out there and not just that figurehead in front of them, because so much of the game has gone towards when you're not there as a PGA professional. Where are you? Where is he today? You know, but they're human too. They deserve a day off as we all do.

So I think it's really fascinating. And I really hope that going forward people and members of private clubs have a real respect for those individuals because they put their life on pause during the golf season. Their families are at home waiting, but they're putting in 10, 12 hour days. And to me that was a big realization for better or worse, I didn't want to be one, I just couldn't. It's a real strain on that lifestyle.   

Roberto: Yeah. PGA professionals run the golf course you play at. Whether it's private, whether it's public, they are running the golf facilities all across the country. So I think that's a good conversation to have. 

Dan: Going back to the Fliers Club, where do you go from here? 

Eric: I think we're pretty young as far as a company is concerned. I mean, five years is not a lot of time from a membership. And I think that we'll continue to spread the gospel, if you will, have more individuals experience how we look at things through our lens.

We see a lot more uptick as far as membership is concerned. So those applications continue to come in. I think that we just continue to build and continue to be more thoughtful and remain true to that authenticity that got us to this point. I think one of the biggest things for us is just maintaining that authenticity- it’s super important. How we look at things and we're not just putting things on just for a transaction. So a lot of it really for us is that and we just stay the course marathon. 

Roberto: Love it. I was thinking about applying for membership. And then I realized about 10 minutes ago that I've been drinking out of a Pine Valley coffee mug during this conversation, which is about the most obnoxious thing you can do. So, uh, denied, accepted? We can just move on from there. 

Eric: No, hey, it's all walks of life. Honestly. You've got guys who are coming from top clubs to that weekend warrior who loves the municipal golf course, but has found the celebration in between. So, you know, like I said, all that baggage goes to the wayside when you get out on the golf course together. You're kind of speaking the same language. People don't really care where your home course is.  

Roberto: I wish Pine Valley was my home club.

Eric: There are a lot of people I’m sure listening that feel same way. That's right. 

Dan: Roberto loves a good member logo flex, but we'll have to find another place for it today. 

Eric: Yeah, well, we'll send along a Fliers Club mug. You can rock that one going forward. 

Roberto: Nice. There you go. 

Dan: Alright, Eric, you survived the in-depth questions. We're going to mix it up a little bit with a couple of new segments where it's more quick hits, first thing that comes to mind type of thing. So, I'll lead us off for the section called Tap-ins mostly focused on golf. So, ready for it? 

Eric: Let's go. 

Dan: When it comes to golf travel, would you rather splurge on how you get there or splurge on where you stay when you get there?

Eric: I'd rather splurge on where I stay when I get there. I think you know, ultimately it's going to take the same amount of time to get there, unless you're going on a really long flight, like to New Zealand or Australia, that's really when you can lay down. Otherwise I'm a real kind of just suck it up kind of guy off the plane and let's get there and we'll enjoy the experience on the ground.

Dan: Also on travel: play 18 at four courses on a trip or 36 at two courses?

Eric: Love 36 at two courses. And the reason why is, think about the first time you play a golf course. As soon as you're walking up 18, you're thinking about what you would've done differently. And oftentimes, and I hate this term, but people say it's a bucket list, but that to me is like, you're not coming back, but you should come back because what was the last time you played a great golf course once, and you're like, yeah, I'm satisfied. So I like the 36 over two courses. 

Dan: I'm always like I would not have snap hooked it on seven and nine and 12. That's always my conversation after a round.

What's one thing that golfers going on buddies trips seem to always get wrong?

Eric: I think it's the pace, the pace that they're going at. It's often this clip of exhaustion and we talked about it earlier, but it really seems to, you know, it's feverish. I wish that people would just take a step back and just enjoy it for the moment. But it's often go, go, go, go, go on buddy trips. And we'd love to see a little more balance. 

Roberto: Careful using the word feverish around COVID times.

Eric: You see our tests prior and post. 

Roberto: How was your trip? It was feverish. Oh my goodness.

Eric: That's six feet away, please.

Dan: Yeah, definitely don't tell Border Patrol.

Eric: Yeah. 

Dan: Ok, if forced with the choice: Good destination or good company? 

Eric: Good company always supersedes good destination. 

Dan: Alright. You hate the term bucket list. So I’ve got to edit this question on the fly. What course have you personally not been to that you're dying to go to?

Eric: Hirono in Japan. That's number one on my list. I'm very eager to get over there. We were supposed to last year. And we were coming out of Oz and Australia, and COVID had hit in 2020. We were supposed to go in the spring ahead of the Olympics and it just...we had to put it on the back burner. So that's number one in my book right now. 

Dan: I’ve never even heard of it. That's cool. What's the easiest way to tell if someone's a jerk when they're applying for admission in the Club? 

Roberto: Coffee mugs.

Eric: That's a great question. I think when it's more about them and less about the community you kind of alluded to it earlier. You know, you can tell when people are a bit selfish. Like I want to play this or I want to do this. And the Club will help me do that. It becomes more about them. But we also have one big step in ours is a phone call- having a conversation. I'm always amazed how many people will sit behind a keyboard and will say the things they will say on the digital screen. But when you get them on the phone, kind of trying to have a real human conversation, it's fascinating to me how many people can't do it.

Dan: Alright. I’ve got to line these next few Tap-ins. We didn’t go to this in your bio, but you've got quite a journey as a singer/songwriter and recording artist in your past too. So let me describe some scenarios in golf that are very real and I want you to list the name of one of your songs that best would fit the scenario. 

Leaving a shot in the bunker?

Eric: Leaving a shot in the bunker. This is good. You guys did some digging. I like it. 

Dan: Our research department was busy.

Eric: Storied past, storied past. Leaving a shot in the bunker. Uh, perhaps “Last Goodbye.”

Roberto: That's great.

Dan: Taking off for a much awaited golf trip?

Eric: I would say “Love Across The Wire.” 

Roberto: Nice. I was going to say, you cannot say Elton John's “Rocketman.”

Dan: Finding your drive buried in fescue?

Eric: Oh man. Perhaps “Better Days.”

Dan: True story. First time I played with Eric, he hit one drive that was just very slightly tugged and cruelly punished by being buried in some nasty fescue. And he was not happy about it. Next time we play, I want to hear you sing it out if that happens again. 

Eric: Vicious. 

Dan: Alright, last one: hooping a 45 footer on the 18th green.

Eric: I would say it's probably “Bittersweet.” One. Yeah, because it would have been great to make it, but you know, the fact that you hooped it, is pretty awesome too. So something's going right. They don't always fall, but you stay patient out there. They will eventually come. 

Dan: I just sourced my next playlist for the golf course. This is perfect. 

Roberto: Emotional rollercoaster. It's emotional playlist on Spotify. That’s what golf is. 

Eric: Just an emotional organ. That's how we describe the weather in the Northeast. Just an emotional roller coaster. 

Dan: That's great. That's it for me. Over to you, Roberto.  

Roberto: Alright, Eric, my section is called Buy or Sell. So quick hits. We’ll open with Tesla stock: buy or sell?

Eric: Buy.

Roberto: Simulator golf: buy or sell?

Eric: Buy.

Roberto: Business travel: buy or sell?

Eric: Sell.

Roberto: Sunday bags: buy or sell?

Eric: A hundred percent, buy. 

Roberto: Trackman, buy or sell?

Eric: I’m a big believer in trackman for research purposes only. Uh, buy. 

Roberto: Golf travel to emerging markets: buy or sell?

Eric: A hundred percent, buy. 

Roberto: Earning a living wage as a professional musician: buy or sell?

Eric: Hard sell. 

Roberto: Nice, nice. Well, Eric, really, really insightful conversation. Business, travel, just the real core of the game. Thank you so much for being on with us. We really appreciate it. 

Eric: Yeah. Thanks so much for having me. This has been fun. Really enjoyed the conversation and thoughtful questions too. It’s been great. 

Dan: Thanks, Eric. All the best to you in the Fliers Club. 

Eric: Thanks guys. Thanks Dan, Roberto. 

Takeaways

Roberto: Dan, great to catch up with Eric. He's really carved out a cool niche business. Tell me what your takeaways are. 

Dan: Second only to Topgolf, this is definitely a business where I'm like, “why didn't I think of this?” My life would be so cool if I got to do this job. That's my first takeaway right off the bat. 

Roberto: Yeah, and it's a business that seems so obvious in retrospect, right? He's in the Northeast. He has a travel background where they do some educational travel and has a passion for golf. And here's the ninja move: he starts with colleges, universities, and probably private prep schools doing golf/education trips. So tons of elite schools in that area, a lot of wealth, a lot of thirst for that kind of experience, whether it's on the team side or the development side. Total ninja move, super smart. It seems so obvious in retrospect, and building a really cool business off that. 

Dan: But McDonald's didn't invent the hamburger and the Fliers Club didn't invent the golf trip. Right? But talk about just finding the right angle. Well executed attention to detail with the right packaging. I think that's what we're looking at with the Fliers Club. It's really fascinating how you can really out-execute by focusing on the little things and putting it all together. And I was very impressed by the ability to make that really successful with that type of thing. 

Roberto: Yeah, I agree. And also one that really jumped off the page was the pace, right? The pace of the trips. I think there's a lot of appeal there and it's a differentiator. We've talked a lot on this show about Bandon Dunes and Streamsong and Sand Valley and these places that are really popular right now. Everyone that I know that's been on those trips plays six rounds in three days or eight rounds in four days. I think it's a big differentiator that they do not take that pace and they kind of stop to smell the roses, as they say, and I think that's really appealing to some people.

Dan: As a guy who has had toenails fall off from so much walking on a golf trip, I can completely relate and appreciate the slower pace of the trip that Eric's talking about. So I'm all aboard with that. But going back to sort of the business model and the Fliers Club business. I think the one big question mark there remains for me is scalability. I don't know what Eric and the Fliers Club scalability ambitions really are, but it does seem challenging to scale that way. It's so high-touch, as it appears to be. And both from how do you grow it with the capacity, but also from a leadership style that Eric has in terms of being sort of a master curator of sorts. How well does that scale? I mean, it's okay with the size of the company and the scope it has now, but at some point as organizations grow, you’ve got to push decision-making downward, give up some control, and that becomes a real growing pain for a lot of companies. And I would love to see if Fliers Club ever gets that scale, how that plays out for them. 

Roberto: Which do you think is a bigger challenge? Let's call it the supply. So you can take a group a week to Sand Valley or to Streamsong which are public resort facilities. But if you're targeting the places that Eric and Fliers are targeting, the supply is a hundred percent limited. You can call on friends and have friends host at nice places, and I'm less familiar with the access in the UK and abroad. But there's definitely limited supply. Do you see that as a bigger challenge or do you see the bigger challenge being that Eric can't go on every trip, right? You can't shake everyone's hand. He can't tell that inside story at the certain hotel that he's been to. Like you said, eventually you have to push responsibility and decision-making down the ladder. Which do you think is the bigger challenge?

Dan: It's more along the lines of the latter where like, how do you make the Fliers Club with the magic touch on every single trip when you go from one trip to a hundred, to a thousand, to 10,000? At that point, you know, you would have to automate, delegate, simplify, and you can only do that so much before it becomes noticeable in the product. Yeah, supply of golf courses is tight, but it's out there. The demand- certainly I don't think would be an issue. But it's that orchestration that I think is where it could break down. 

Roberto: Yeah, you're probably right. Every time I go to a place that's really cool that maybe I've never heard of, I walk away and say the same line. There's just so many good places. There's so many cool places, so many places to see. So you're right. And especially the tack that they take. They're not only going for Marion and Oakmont and the Old Course. Right? They're looking with a little bit wider lens. So you're probably right. There are plenty of places, but only one Eric. 

Dan: That's right. So let's pull the string on that a little bit more. In an era where so much is self-service and democratized travel. Just to stick with that. Since that's so relevant to this, I went from an agency business not that long ago to an Expedia and self-serve and do it yourself kind of model. Golf hasn't gotten there yet. And this is somewhere in the middle, right? It's like an agent, but it's easy to access stuff and you get some sort of handholding, but you get to sort of touch the trip a little bit. I wonder if that model starts becoming appealing enough for folks to actually not play as much at private clubs at home. Right? Will they just kind of like use this to get access to cool people, cool courses, cool experiences? But kind of go, all right, I'm going to splurge on that, but I'm okay playing the muni. I wonder in big cities in particular do you think that idea has legs? Could we see that being a model that folks gravitate to?

Roberto: It's a great question. And it keeps popping up in our conversations on The Course Record Show. It's a question that affects every part of the golf business. I really believe that. And I don't know the answer to it, but deciding where you're going to spend your time and your dollars, where you're going to allocate those two things, is how you're going to figure out what the best businesses and golf are over the next 20 years. And it's a great question.  You have some experience in this. When you lived in Boston, up until recently, you were playing the muni and spending 80% of your golf rounds were on trips, right? 

Dan: Yeah. That's roughly correct. 

Roberto: So what changed for you and are you not taking trips anymore and spending all your time and money at the club you joined? How has that shaken out?

Dan: A little bit to that. Yeah, I think what's changed, I think COVID had an impact on it. I think having the ability to kind of play more fluidly without a big planning aspect and also a place where my kids can learn to play is a big deal on joining a club. But take those things aside, right. If I'm not a dad, for instance, and COVID isn't a thing, I would seriously consider the model of alright, bounce around and play public and semi-private golf courses and then say, all right, everything I saved there goes into my little piggy bank to go splurge- go to a Bandon or whatever the case may be. I think that'd be a great way to get around and get some golf. I would be shocked if people have cracked this nut well, before you and I are talking about it. 

Roberto: What's funny, though, is that it feels like anecdotally that all of those are true right now. The answer to all those questions is “yes.” There was an article in Bloomberg last week about golf, vacation homes, golf communities booming like they haven’t in decades, which is kind of the second home model. Country clubs have the longest waiting lists they've had. At least the blue chips, you know, the ones we always talk about- Sand Valley, Bandon- they're booked out 18 months. So maybe the answer is just push your chips in on golf. I don't know. 

Dan: Maybe switch gears a little bit. Let's talk about the revenue in the commercial model for the Fliers Club. And we didn't go into this too much in our interview with Eric. But I'm always fascinated by the idea of monetizing, commercializing experience, which is so inherently intangible. Think of the arts- music, theater, etc- usually propped up by benefactors or subsidies from governments, et cetera. It is so experience-driven, right? When Eric had to pivot the Fliers Club into a storytelling model and kind of playing on that without the benefit of cranking out trips. I was really fascinated by the idea, like, how do you put a price tag on that? How do you get people to say, Hey, I want to fork out for this and keep going? What are your thoughts on that, Roberto? 

Roberto: I think the answer to that is that people are dying to be a part of something. We're more connected than we've ever been, but also less connected. People are dying to feel like they're a part of a community. And even if you're not on a trip, if you're just a Fliers Club member, you feel like you're part of something. Even if you haven't been to The Buck Club, you still want to head cover from there because it gets you into a community of people that all have a similar interest. And by the way, nobody's been to The Buck Club because it doesn't exist. So that's the most extreme example of Zac Blair selling tons of merchandise for a place that doesn't exist. He's selling merchandise so that people can be a part of something. And Eric is obviously moving a lot of merchandise too, with part of the Fliers Club and Harry, the flying rabbit, just tells other people that I'm a part of something cool. And that's something that people are just dying for. I really believe that. 

Dan: Yeah, it is funny. There is that. Everyone was trying to build an emotional connection, right? Like this isn't a product, it's a lifestyle kind of thing. But like, sometimes it works. And I think we're talking about an example where it works here with the Fliers Club. But sometimes it feels like cheap talk when other brands try to pull it off. I don't know what makes or breaks the winners and losers there. But I'm always fascinated. I don't know what makes it. But it's fascinating.

Roberto: I think people are looking for a tribe. They're looking for a tribe and they're looking for a brand to say something about them. And we don't talk a lot about brand on this show, but wearing a Seminole logo or a Pine Valley logo- it tells people something about you that you have access to somewhere cool. Just like driving a Honda says something about you. Every car is good now, right? Driving a BMW says something about you. And I think that these logos and these tribes that have built up around golf are the same. A Buck Club logo says that you like to play fast and you're not into the hoity toity part of golf and you play in a hoodie and do you know about architecture? It just says something about you, and Fliers Club is no different. It says something different, but I think it's the same brand play. 

Dan: Yeah. I mean, it sounds like it was like travel and experience first, merch second. And I wonder if that could have worked in reverse, right? Could you have told that story and built that sense of connection with the merch had it been introduced earlier? I don't know. Who knows? But I can see in the timeline of how merch became very prominent the Fliers Club, it could have piggybacked off of preconceived connections, that sense of emotion and connectivity that you're talking about. But it manifests itself through logos and merch and clothes.

Roberto: Yeah. Alright. So in a similar vein, we're talking about being a part of something and finding a tribe. One thing I kept thinking about- and I've thought about what some of these other travel club models like Outpost as an example- is how do you get diversity in your membership? Eric talked about that, talked about wanting to have different income levels and different professions and whatnot. But if you really break it down and you follow Outpost, for example, and you see the folks on their trips, you and I are not going to do a seven day trip to Australia right now. We have young kids. We have careers. So the profile there is empty nesters, who’ve obviously been successful in their profession. So how does he build that membership to be so you've got the 20 something guy who brings XYZ to the table. And then you've got the 65 year old, older, wiser, and they're sitting around a firepit. Not sharing stories about watches and wine that is superficial, but how do you get a real connection that comes through different generations and different walks of life coming together? I think that's a big challenge. I think that has to be a big challenge for Eric. 

Dan: Golf definitely has that power, right? That shared connection that can sort of trump or supersede things. But you're right- when it comes to actually putting experience together, money has to be a barrier for those trips. Even the cheapest trips aren't cheap. Right? And that does start to self-select a crowd that might skew a certain way demographically, socioeconomically, et cetera. But so you're right. That is probably difficult to pull off and I'd be curious to get Eric back on the show and talk about that.

Roberto: And you nailed it though. The countervailing force there is golf's ability to bring people together. You know, when I was 15, 16 years old, I was playing with guys who were 65 years old at the club and it was fine. It was great. I learned a ton. We had a blast. So golf can break down a lot of those barriers, but hopping on a plane and going halfway around the world or taking a trip together, you really have to be committed to the same things and I think have the same profile. So to get that mix, I'm sure he's very thoughtful about it, like he is with everything else, and I'm sure he does a good job of it, but it's not without effort, I'm sure. 

Dan: Yeah, no question. 

Roberto: Alright, Dan, until next time.