#10: Jesse Menachem (Mass Golf)
Jesse Menachem is Executive Director and CEO of Mass Golf, the state Golf Association in Massachusetts. He’s been with the organization since 2004, where he started as an intern, then Director of Rules and Competition, before becoming Executive Director in 2013. Jesse is also the President of the International Association of Golf Administrators. He’s dedicated his life’s work to improving the game of golf and has a unique perspective on the game.
Read the interview below or listen on Spotify, Apple, Google, Stitcher or Amazon. Enjoy!
Dan: Jesse, welcome to The Course Record Show.
Jesse: Thanks so much, guys.
Dan: We’ll jump right in. The Mass Golf mission statement is to advance the game of golf in Massachusetts by building an engaged community around the sport. I'm particularly intrigued by the use of the word “advance” in a state as rich in golf as Massachusetts. What does “advancement” mean?
Jesse: Great question. And I would say it means a lot. And I think that speaks to who we've become as an organization. We are a 100 year old organization that merged with another back in 2018. So the MGA and the WGAM, Massachusetts Golf Association, Women's Golf Association of Mass, became one. So you combine two, longstanding, formidable organizations into one, and we rebranded as Mass Golf. We really refreshed who we are and rethought who we are as we want to plan for the future. So, our mission is truly to continue to evolve and make sure we're keeping up with the game, with expectations, with demands.
And I think it's just a continuous evolution. And I would say we're pretty much in phase one of that right now. So, we want to stay ahead and do as much as we can to keep the game sustainable, but to keep it growing at the same time.
Roberto: What do you think is the most misunderstood aspect of the role that state golf associations play in managing the game?
Jesse: Yeah, I think for a long time, well, many of our organizations were introduced to host state championships. So I think that's what we're mainly known for. And oftentimes we probably get pulled into the bucket of, you know, speaking to, or catering to your elite amateur golfer. But the reality is we do so much more, but those state championships certainly get the spotlight.
We have a membership of a hundred thousand golfers and, you know, our championships really cater to about 5,000-6,000 golfers. So our services by way of our member Clubs and to our individual golfers through handicapping, through course ratings, through value added services. That's really who we are and what we're all about and access is key.
You know, whether it's through some of our junior programs, youth on course, it's really about serving all golfers, all Clubs throughout the state. And I think oftentimes we can get kind of- I don’t know if scrutinize is the right word- put into that light where it's just about the elite amateur golfer. When in fact we're working here every day for all golfers all the time.
Dan: How do you see your role personally in this ecosystem? Are you a regulator? Are you a cheerleader? Are you a catalyst, a curator, or something else altogether?
Jesse: I'd say all of the above at any given time. At different points of the year or the season, or depending on how the industry is evolving, we may be wearing a different hat. And I think last year probably speaks perfectly to that, with the pandemic when we didn't know if golf would be opening, when it would be opening, how it would be opening. So we became advocates, we became cheerleaders. But in a more normal year, as we're starting to get back into, we're champions of the game, we want to celebrate the game. We want to celebrate players’ accomplishments. Certainly the youth movement that we're seeing. So it really depends on the year, on the project or the objective. But I think that speaks to who we are as Mass Golf: we’re golf for the masses.
Roberto: Tell me a little bit more about the youth movement. Are you talking about juniors under 18? Are you talking about a younger generation that is playing golf in hoodies with their hat backwards? What are you talking about there?
Jesse: Uh, a little bit of both, but I think my intent was more around where golf is going in our state. We have seen specifically our two state amateur champions, for example, incredible college players who really came up through the ranks. They play, they practice all the time. One's playing for Harvard, one's playing for Stanford.
And we're just seeing these trends in some of these tournaments and events where we're seeing a new wave of youth, and the core of it is quite remarkable. I talked to some colleagues around the industry locally here. Being a seasonal state we didn't always have this many junior golfers playing at the level they are.
And I think with technology, I think with different facilities that have come about throughout the state and beyond, you've got players that are able to keep a club in their hand 12 months out of the year. So it's really changed the game. And I think it's put Massachusetts and some of your seasonal state associations more so on the map.
Roberto: So you brought it up. I was going to. I'm down in the south. We can pretty much play 12 months a year. How do you as an organization keep that momentum through the winter? Is it all about screen golf? Is it all about simulator golf? Do you guys actively have programs that try to make it a 12 month engagement?
Jesse: I think we accept who we are up here. We've got some coastal golf courses, which is great. So you can get away with playing some golf out on Cape Cod 12 months a year. For the majority of us, I think many do tend to shut it down, but you do still have some opportunities to stay in tune with the game.
You know, if it is simulators through a screen, but that actually kind of speaks to who we become as an organization. We're a community of golfers, so we want to keep the engagement strong. Certainly our handicapping season will end come November 14th, but we have opportunities to communicate with golfers, with Clubs throughout the year. To keep them engaged, whether it's through health and wellness, and fitness, sharing stories, preparing them for another season and even working with different parts of the country to start with some member travel and keep people really entertained and engaged with golf 12 months throughout the year.
Roberto: That's awesome.
Dan: Talking about the organization behind Mass Golf, give us a little peek behind the curtain. How are you structured? How does it all work to come together to deliver all this experience on your mission?
Jesse: Certainly. Yeah. So we are, per our bylaws, an association of member Clubs. So we have 360 member Clubs across the state from Cape Cod all the way out to Western Mass. And by way of those member Clubs, we have over a hundred thousand individual golfers on our membership roster- those who hold a GHIN handicap index. We are a volunteer-driven organization. We have a Board of 14 and we have a committee structure that ties into our respective departments on staff.
So as Executive Director, I oversee and work with the Board, and work with our staff of 22. So our departments align such that we have our championship department, communications and marketing, finance administration, member services, which is a major ticket for amateur junior golf development, First Tee of Massachusetts.
So all of our committees do align with those teams. Our staff has built out quite a bit, as you can imagine over the last few years, but really, we try to work in concert with one another. I think it's unique that we have our junior golf bucket under the umbrella of Mass Golf, where we've had the First Tee as part of our core mission for over 20 years. We own and operate a par three golf course here in Norton, which is really the home of the First Tee of Massachusetts, but it's just the home base where we have other program locations scattered across the state. So, you know, the organization is driven by the Board, but we really try to strike that balance between volunteer leadership and execution at the staff level.
Dan: There are so many organizations that play a role here, right? There's Mass Golf, PGA of America, USGA, and they share similar missions, it seems. So how would you consider Mass Golf's lane in that ecosystem be distinct from all the other organizations that I just mentioned?
Jesse: Yeah. I think what it comes down to is that we're local. You know, we are that local touch point where we're communicating, connecting with the club leaders and the golfers. We are an ally golf association of the United States Golf Association. And I think this is now three years of the AGA partnership that was formulated and, in a way- I've always put ourselves in kind of like the major league/minor league baseball realm, where USGA is kind of your major league association. And we're not AAA, but you know, we're the affiliate, you know, we're the local affiliate to help grow the game, support the game, carry out the initiatives of what the USGA offers. But do it with a little bit of a twist or flavor of our own, because we have that ability. We have the familiarity through our volunteer network, through the events that we host. We can really be our own but (also) channel up through some of the national initiatives that might be going on.
Roberto: So let's take one of those specifically: handicapping. It's something that the USGA really hangs its hat on. And you've already mentioned it twice. If I'm a golfer in Massachusetts, I sign up through my local club or through Mass Golf, and then you feed that revenue up to the USGA and then they provide the platform for the GHIN system? Is that how it works?
Jesse: So we are basically an affiliate to provide GHIN handicapping in our geography. That’s what allows us to be that ally golf association. So there is some revenue share there between the state association and the USGA, but the bulk of it does remain with us because it's our core service. It's what we offer to our golfers. And it's really no secret it's what drives our operation in many ways.
But it allows us to support everything else that we do, whether it's hosting, posting a club leadership forum, First Tee program, supporting the youth on course program. But the handicap is key. That's really the driver that helps with engagement in many ways, but it's built into our overall membership.
So it's a component of what we offer. It's essential to the game of golf. It's what makes us very unique as a sport. And it's something we track very closely and are thrilled to say that we continue to grow our membership and our members with GHIN handicaps.
Roberto: I was having lunch with somebody in the industry yesterday and they were talking about the handicap system and how he simply doesn't have a handicap. Doesn't need one. He's not an avid enough or good enough golfer to use a handicap. How do we bring- back to the youth conversation- how do we bring a beginner, somebody who starts at TopGolf or these places they can't shoot a legitimate score, but they're liking the game. How do we design a system so that they get under the Mass Golf umbrella when they're not going to post the score, but they want to play nine holes a few times a year?
They want to be able to track some progress. They want to move from, let's say a white belt to a yellow belt. And then the black belt is maybe where you get your GHIN handicap. Is there a conversation around that? I thought it was an interesting take. And I wanted to follow up with you because you're so close to it.
Jesse: It's a great question. And it's something we have been slightly challenged with. Because I think you nailed it. A lot of those golfers that don't have one, just say, I may not play enough or I'm not good enough. And the reality is it's a player performance tracker, and the name handicap index probably isn't doing us too many favors from a marketing/promotional standpoint.
If we were to kind of spin it in a way that you just described, I think it may help more golfers understand that this is something that's going to allow you to engage with the game. It's going to allow you to benchmark yourself against your friends, your family, your peers, or any average Joe that might be on the first tee.
It's just a really neat, cool way to enjoy the game. Have a level of competition that really no other sport is able to offer. So through the world handicapping system, I think that was an incredible development to really level the playing field and have your handicap be able to travel.
I think it's really about, you know, educating, storytelling a little bit, and kind of bringing the nomenclature out of it. And just simply saying this is a player performance tracker that's going to help you throughout your journey in the game.
Dan: Never play the person who doesn't have a handicap. I learned that the hard way a couple of weeks ago. And it was brutal.
Jesse: Yeah. You never liked those first tee arguments, right?
Dan: Not good. It was lost before it started. Switching gears a little bit, Jesse, let's talk about some of your events. What's the process for securing a venue for championships and tournaments? Is it more like begging Clubs to allow you to do it? Or are they active for it? How does that work?
Jesse: So we very much like to form partnerships with our member Clubs. There's a sincere alignment there. But ultimately we have over a hundred events that we might be running in a given year from a state championship to a tournament, to a member day, to a USGA local qualifier.
So we've been working very closely with Club leaders to really match up what might be a fit for them, you know, who would they want to see at their facility to showcase and to promote what they have to offer. But then we also want to make sure we're balancing each and every one of our events or championships to make sure that we're hitting every part of the state.
So for example, for the Mass Open or the State Amateur, we want to make sure we're offering a qualifying event on Cape Cod, on the north shore of Boston, in Western Mass. Because when you think about it, it could be two and a half, three hours to go from east to west. And we want to make sure we're catering to different communities, showcasing different parts of the state.
But I would say ultimately we try to game plan out with each host Club, put some packages together. So work out maybe a five or six year plan in certain cases and offer a few different, diverse opportunities, whether it's a senior event, the junior event, a women's event, to make sure that we're able to cast a wide net and be as inclusive as we possibly can.
Roberto: It sounds like you're ahead of the USGA, because they're playing on these so-called anchor sites so when you know what's coming, you can invest in the club, in the infrastructure to host events, whether that's a US Open or a state level event. I think it makes sense: when you have a long-term commitment, your performance is better in all industries. So I think that's a really smart way to look at it.
Jesse: Yeah. It's helped us a lot. And I'd say in some ways we've kind of given a taste of that anchor site constant. We have certain Clubs that will offer to host the Amateur, the Women's Amateur, every 10 years. And it's kind of a known part of the relationship that we try to work in. And it's a tremendous offer on their part. I think players really appreciate that because, you know, they can forecast out and plan for the future and say I had an incredible experience here five years ago and can't wait to do it again just a few years down.
Roberto: All right, talking about events. You're hosting the granddaddy of them all next year. The US Open comes to The Country Club at Brookline. What opportunities does that open up for golf in the state? And what responsibilities does that come with for you?
Jesse: We are excited to put Brookline on the main stage. Once again, we can already tell the interest and the demand is just through the roof. We're working closely with the USGA as our partners. I think it's really unique, specifically next year. Unfortunately we don't have a PGA Tour event in Massachusetts next year. But that also may be a good thing because it puts a spotlight on Brookline and the US Open.
And I'm sure in the future there will be a PGA Tour event back in the state. But I'm really, I think there's a lot of opportunity. Of our 360 member Clubs, we're about two thirds public access. And I think through the NGF- National Golf Foundation- there are about 650,000 golfers in the state. So we have a hundred thousand right now through our membership. And I think that just shows how much of an opportunity there is to bring more golfers into the fold. Whether it's through our membership channels, or just through the game, getting people touching a club, playing nine holes. I think we all know golf is not only that 18 hole round anymore. So if the US Open can help drive some continued momentum that we've seen the last 18 months to two years, I think it could be tremendous for the golf ecosystem here for awareness, for engagement.
Dan: The stories coming out of the Ryder Cup in ‘99 at Brookline continue to amaze me. Right? The stuff that happened on the ground- fan engagement of all forms continues to be really interesting.
Roberto: So you mentioned there's no PGA Tour event annually in Massachusetts. Remind me what the structure is here. The Northern Trust will be up there once every three years or something? And then I'm a big believer that when people attend a Tour event in person, they fall in love with golf and they become lifelong fans of the Tour. It's such a great product in person. So thoughts on that? And then also, how often are we going back to Massachusetts?
Jesse: It's a little bit unknown right now. What originally started as the Deutsche Bank Championship then became a FedEx Cup stop over Labor Day weekend, and most recently that transitioned into the Dell Technologies and then the Northern Trust. The Northern Trust was rotating back and forth between Boston and New York. They have reshuffled/realigned some of the stops for the FedEx Cup. So it is a bit of a question mark what could become of a Boston Tour stop in the future. But TPC Boston is here in our backyard. It's part of that PGA Tour network. And I would have to imagine that they'll be back on the schedule as soon as possible.
Roberto: Yeah, great golf course. I always enjoyed my time there. Fun course. The 18th hole is, I think it might've been redesigned after the first year or two, but it's a great finishing hole. It's a perfect length and perfect risk/reward. It’s a cool hole.
Jesse: Couldn't agree more. Always an exciting finish there, just great for the atmosphere. Great for everybody involved around it.
Roberto: By the way, the atmosphere? People ask me, what are the fans like? The fans in Boston and New York are at a totally different level. I am convinced that this Ryder Cup at Bethpage is not going to work, that is gonna be a problem. It is a whole different situation up there. I think it's going to be absolutely bananas.
Jesse: We've got some passionate fanatics up here, whatever sport we're talking about, they're going to come in droves and they are going to be committed, no doubt.
Roberto: “Committed” is a good word for it.
Dan: So Jesse, you're also the sitting President of the International Association of Golf Administrators or the IAGA. What's the role of the IAGA and its ecosystem of golf?
Jesse: So ultimately we're a conglomerate of state regional golf associations mainly in North America. We've been expanding a bit in recent years, but it's an opportunity for staff to get together, collaborate and network, and really share best practices for the betterment of golf and the golf ecosystem.
The USGA, Golf Canada, they've been a part of the organization for a very long time. It's an opportunity for us to make sure that golf is healthy in all parts of the country, the region. And we continue to advance- I think “advance” comes up once again, whether it's the Mass Golf mission or IAGA’s mission- I think it's a concerted effort by these individuals and these organizations to make sure that golf is sustainable and that we offer the most consistent and best opportunities for our members, for our member Clubs, and really to be a community, to be partners. And, no idea cannot be shared or stolen if you will. We're all doing this for the same reasons, but we're just doing it in different pockets of the country or the region. So it's a very healthy, engaging opportunity and just a friendly network that I've been proud to be a part of.
Roberto: What kind of business problems do you guys tackle? Is that a lot of it? Because it seems to me that golf has a lot of bureaucracy and overlapping organizations. So let's just say state golf associations. Is this an organization that keeps the 50 state golf associations from working on the same problems independently? So rather than all of you in your state work on the same problem, you can say, “Hey, I solved this problem. Here's the solution.” And share it with others. Is that the intent of the organization? Is that the intent of IAGA?
Jesse: In many ways, yes. It's not just about those little tweaks and modifications you can make to an event or a championship. It is about that bigger picture and making sure we can work as a team, if it is problem solving and a perfect example of that is, we have a New England Golf Association here in the region and we connect and collaborate throughout the year. But it's the perfect example of working through an IAGA type of organization that we can share what our problems or concerns might be that could be relevant to another part of the country and vice versa. In California, there are huge water problems. And inevitably that's going to make its way east and we all need to be prepared for that. So, you know, from an advocacy standpoint, that's top of mind. And I think again, to highlight last year, in some ways, it was devastating. But for golf, it became a bit of a silver lining through the pandemic.
I couldn't tell you how many times I was on the phone with colleagues from around the country, just to say, what was the best method of working through your state, your Governor, what really moved the needle to help them understand why golf needs to be open. And that's a prime example of how the IAGA works and how we really connect with one another, not just at an annual conference, but throughout the year.
Dan: You mentioned COVID. As a Massachusetts golfer, I witnessed a lot of and tried to track a lot of the discussion between the Governor's office here, and the city governments here and all that went into reopening golf in Massachusetts in the spring of 2020. I think we're one of the last states to reopen if I remember correctly. Take us there. What were the conversations like? What was your role here? What were some of the unique moments you experienced in all of this?
Jesse: We might need to write a book at some point about 2020 and golf. But it was rather unique. I think the entire situation around the world and country was new.
And what it came down to was golf is about the people and the community that we have. So for many years in Massachusetts, we've been part of the Alliance of Massachusetts golf organizations. And it's really the collective of all the state and regional associations here. So your golf course superintendents, PGA professionals, club managers, golf course owners. So there's a group of about nine of us, and oftentimes we'll collaborate and work together on behalf of the golf community, on behalf of the industry here. We've done a state golf day economic impact study. So having that group, really in the periphery, was an opportunity to say, we need to work together to make sure golf gets back open and open in a safe and successful way.
So we engaged that group really immediately. And the first thing that we needed to achieve was to get golf courses back open to be maintained, because as we know, those are the assets out there. We needed to make sure courses are healthy and can sustain the entire season, because it was- I think it was April- the Masters was happening. We needed to make sure that if and when we had golf courses to play. So we engaged with that group. We were able to get golf courses maintained. And then it took kind of a multi-step process from there to get golfers back on the golf course.
It was ultimately May 7th, 2020. It's now a holiday on my calendar, but it was very unique. As I mentioned before, we leaned on some of our colleagues from around the country to see what was working in their jurisdiction and their geography. In Massachusetts, COVID really took on a different life. I think in some ways the pandemic kind of started here, but it was at its peak here in Massachusetts.
So we wanted to be careful with that. We wanted it to be respectful as a golf community. I think it speaks to who we are as golfers with, you know, integrity, honesty, respect. We just worked in a very polite, respectful way through the Lieutenant Governor, Governor Baker, and ultimately we were the last state to open up. But I think we did it in a way that was beneficial for everyone under the circumstances we were all facing.
Dan: We live in a time where everything is so political and so divisive. I'm curious how golf plays a role in that. Does golf reach across the aisle, or was it a really partisan fight when it comes to reopening golf and even talking about golf and they're all politics?
Jesse: I think just the nature of the game, I think golf can serve as that facilitator or that glue in many ways to get people together and almost level the playing field, if you will. It's an enjoyable experience, enjoyable atmosphere, but I guess on more of the nuts and bolts side of it, it's also big business. It drives the economy. It's a $2.7 billion industry and 25,000 jobs throughout the state. And I think that's hugely important for the Commonwealth.
And I think many in the state do recognize that, and it's a healthy activity. I think that's what we were able to really lean on last year that we became that first safe recreational activity to enjoy. So again, I think I'd go back to my original comment to say that, in many ways it can bring people together and be a safeguard, an outlet and an opportunity in that respect.
Roberto: Since you guys reopened, golf has boomed all across the country. What's that boom been like in Massachusetts and what's it going to take to sustain it going forward?
Jesse: It’s been remarkable. Actually we had our annual meeting yesterday and I just commented how fun this has been to see where golf is going. We've got wait-lists, we've got a membership growth, we're seeing junior activations through First Tee and youth on courses like we've never seen.
I think awareness is really key right now. I mentioned it earlier, but we were stuck in that rut that golf had to be 18 holes. It had to be overly traditional. And I think we're finally over that hump to say make golf fit into your lifestyle however that might be- if it's hanging out with some buddies at a TopGolf or at a driving range, playing nine holes before or after work.
Almost like shooting hoops for a half hour, you can have that golf experience. And I think it's finally accepted and I really, I believe, and I hope that that can continue. But I think that's what's gonna allow us to be most sustainable here, to continue the momentum, continue to surge, keep people engaged and intrigued with the game. From our standpoint, make sure the experience is great, but also cater to any golf enthusiasts or anyone who might be involved, whether they're just starting with the game or perhaps they may not be able to play as regularly and they just want to be a fan of the game.
Roberto: I love how you articulated that and you talked about making golf fit into your lifestyle. Circling back to the handicap system, that's why the GHIN feels like an antiquated way to keep tally of how the growth is happening in a state or across the country. There are so many new ways to get engaged and I love everything you just said about where golf is going and having a system that a player incentive or performance system that matches that new world I think is going to be important and someone will do it. And I think that it just made me think of that previous topic.
Jesse: Yeah. You know, I mean, lifestyles have evolved and I think that is essential for any business, but especially when you're in service and you're in a recreational sport like we are. We've all seen the model change, even at the Club facility level. I think you mentioned earlier, you know, the hoodies and some different type of lifestyle engagement. So there's a balance there from tradition to evolution.
Roberto: I agree. I think golf is going to be like a lot of things- I don’t want to say segmented. You're going to have traditional golf and that's good: putting on or having a dress code, taking your hat off inside, or having to change your shoes in the locker room. That's fine. That's all good. It's tradition. And there's a place for that. But I think we're going to have very distinct buckets where that's one sort of golf and then the other sort is driving range with your buddies. And that's good because the more the merrier and I think we're getting over the fact that they are different things and it's okay to act and behave and treat them differently.
Jesse: We couldn't agree more.
Dan: So let me pull a thread there. If we're going to bring in new golfers to grow the game, how constrained are we by capacity of facilities and professionals, et cetera? Do we have room to grow? Do we have to build more courses? How do we accommodate all that?
Jesse: I think we've seen a little bit of or a taste of the issue around demand in the last year. You know, tee times are tough to acquire in some respects but we're starting to see that level off a bit. Folks are getting back to work, getting back to other types of routines. I don't think we're there yet, that it's going to be a major issue. And that probably goes back to making golf what you want of it, because there are so many ways to experience it and different time blocks, different elements to consider. The TopGolfs of the world are booming and there's competition out there. And in that realm, you've got even mini golf course type models that are coming out similar to a TopGolf experience.
That's going to continue to evolve. Bring in different new segments as well. So I think it's been healthy that your green grass facilities, from a supply and demand standpoint, are starting to balance out and get to a more healthy place. But I think it's more about the onboarding and finding those different ways to get these newer or lapsed golfers back into the game. And I think there's still tremendous opportunity there even from an infrastructure and stability standpoint.
Roberto: All right, Jesse, we're going to get to some quick hits, but I have to ask you this question: On The Course Record Show, we focus on the business of golf. I've been taking some notes throughout our conversation. Here's my tally so far. We have Mass Golf, which was a merger of two organizations, Alliance of Massachusetts Golf Associations, the New England Golf Association, the IAGA, which rolls into an allied golf association. 59 of those are under the USGA. Private equity has made a lot of money and has a habit of rolling up fragmented industries, whether it's fast food, whether it's car washes. Now they are going on to HVAC and all these. Is there a world- you're a part of a merger that happened in 2018 at Mass Golf? Is that going to happen in the golf world? Is it too fragmented? And will this all get rolled up over the next 25 years?
Jesse: I don’t know, I don't think it'll get rolled up necessarily. I think it'll become more streamlined and I think many of us who lead organizations and are involved in these types of conversations, acknowledge that and know things can likely be more efficient and effective if we pull things together and pool resources. I don't think it's going to get to the extreme of what you just referenced there. But I think it'll be tighter, cleaner, and more effective for the end user, ultimately, and for us to conduct our businesses in the most sound and efficient way.
So we've seen the benefit of that over the last three years. The MGA/WGAM merger here- it had been talked about for over 10 years and it took the right people to come together to finally do that. But it's become a more efficient and effective organization and operations. And ultimately for that end user, it's becoming simpler. Our Clubs have one organization to call if they need a service or to work through an issue. Our players know we are that resource, our golfers know this is where their membership is coming from. So I can see that happening and scaling, say, over the next 5, 10, 20 years. But I think there's also huge importance to the different segments and organizations within the golf industry. We all have different responsibilities in some ways, but we're also part of the grow-the-game mindset at the same time.
Roberto: That's cool. I love how your members now have one customer-facing organization in Massachusetts that they deal with. That's a big win.
Dan: Jesse, I am a poor golfer, but I am a “sicko” for the game. But I compare myself to you and I'm nowhere close to the level of dedication you've had for the game. You've devoted your entire career up to now to the game of golf. So what I'm curious to know is when you look back, whenever you hang it up and your career in golf is over, what do you want your legacy to be?
Jesse: Wow. Well thank you for that for one. Mass Golf is all I know. I was an intern for the organization for three years. I ran our championships and now as Executive Director. I think from a legacy standpoint, it would really be about building the strongest community possible and getting us working and rowing in the same direction. Making sure this organization can be sustainable and be as strong as it possibly can for the next a hundred plus years. I've seen it grow from very much a mom and pop to a very legitimate business. And from a staff of about eight when I started to now 22, it's an incredible movement.
I think it also goes back to the whole lifestyle component of where we see golf fitting. Striking that balance ultimately, and making sure that golf can be for anyone, anyhow, anywhere is what keeps me going, keeps the ideas flowing. And I think if we can continue to make progress on that, I'll be a happy camper and we'll be in great shape for a long time.
Roberto: That's great. Congratulations on the work you've done so far and where you're going. I think broad statistics can be misleading sometimes. Unemployment numbers. Like if you want to know car sales, go to the car lot and talk to the guys who are selling cars if you want to know what the car business is doing. You guys had eight to service a membership, and now you have 22. So you tell me if golf is growing or if membership is growing. It's absolutely growing; you guys aren't just sitting around doing nothing. If 22 people servicing golf in Massachusetts, triple what you had previously. That’s awesome.
Jesse: It really is. It's been cool to see the evolution of it. And, you know, to also have our core of volunteers that help support this game. We've got over 300 volunteers, whether it's as a tournament or rules volunteer, a course rater, a junior golf coach. That's also what really impresses me that we've got this whole ecosystem that works together for the betterment of the game.
Dan: All right, Jesse, you survived the deep in-depth questions. We're going to mix it up on you a little bit with a couple of segments here. I'll lead this off with one called Tappin's. These are mostly about golf, kind of more quick hits. First thing that comes to mind kind of questions. You ready?
Jesse: Let's go.
Dan: All right. Coolest part of your job?
Jesse: The people. They're great. They're great to be a part of. They keep me going and to me it's always been about relationships.
Dan: The 22 or the hundred thousand?
Jesse: Even more: the staff at our clubs, the hundred thousand, the staff and volunteers that we work with, it's really the whole collective.
Dan: You know where I'm going next: least favorite part of your job?
Roberto: Keeping track of all the acronyms.
Jesse: You did a good job note taking there. Yeah. Least favorite part of the job? Let me get back to that one. Sorry.
Dan: Just as long as you don’t say “media obligations like this…”
Jesse: I'm not fulfilling your quick tap in, the responses here.
Roberto: Amateur podcasting. And we'll just leave it at that.
Dan: Well, good segue. You recently announced your Massachusetts Golf Hall of Fame inductees for this year. The categories are player, professional club teacher, builder or innovator. Where would lowly podcasters like us fit in?
Jesse: I think you guys are a hybrid as you’re building and you're innovating because you're helping to share the business of the game, the importance of the game, but you're also extremely receptive to where the game is going and being nimble and being versatile. So I think that somewhere in the middle there.
Roberto: Was that a formal nomination for Dan’s induction or are we not there yet?
Dan: I was asking for a friend, asking for a friend.
Jesse: Right. Full disclosure.
Dan: All right. When it comes to golf, walking or riding?
Jesse: I really enjoy walking and I've adopted that, you know, Mid Am pull cart as of late.
Dan: Nice. Play a hundred holes in one day or play 18 holes, six days in a row?
Jesse: I just played a hundred holes in one day for a hundred hole hike.
Dan: How did that go?
Jesse: It was great.
Roberto: Did you walk?
Jesse: I did. Yeah, we had an incredible fundraiser for it. But I'm going to go with the 18 hole option.
Dan: I won't ask you about your feet after that.
Jesse: Yeah, I wasn't going to get into it either.
Dan: On the course- music or beverages?
Jesse: Music. I'll save the beverages for post game.
Dan: Smart. COVID related question. Do you prefer putting with the cups up or down?
Jesse: Oh, down. No doubt.
Dan: I do too, but I miss my scores from last year [when the cups were up].
Jesse: Do you want to go back to the least favorite part of the job?
Dan: Yes. Yes. Let's go back.
Jesse: I would have to say just the constant juggle. There's a lot going on in our world and being a seasonal organization you've got to stay on top and ahead. And that comes with its challenges. You want to put as much focus as you can on one particular objective or goal, but at the same time, you've got to continue to juggle. So I don't know if it's necessarily my least favorite, but maybe it's my most challenging.
Roberto: Well said. All right, Jesse, my section is a little more business focused and it's called Buy or Sell. Quick hits again. Buy or sell- Tesla stock?
Jesse: Uh, buy. My son's a big fan .
Roberto: Buy or sell- golf carts?
Jesse: Sell.
Roberto: Buy or sell- simulator golf?
Jesse: Buy.
Roberto: Buy or sell- Top Golf?
Jesse: Buy.
Dan: When do we get one here? I'm dying for one.
Jesse: That's a good question. We'd love to have you down at our facility. We've got a couple of simulators going.
Roberto: Nice. Dan's trying to talk his wife into putting one in his basement. So good luck. Wish him luck with that. Buy or sell- Brady or Belichick?
Jesse: Brady.
Roberto: Buy or sell- fully inflated golf balls or partially deflated golf balls?
Jesse: Geez. The New England dig. Huh?
Roberto: The Atlanta dig comes next. Go ahead.
Jesse: Partially Inflated.
Roberto: Alright, buy or sell- did the Falcons blow it or did Tommy Terrific win it in the 2017 Super Bowl?
Jesse: Tommy Terrific. All day.
Roberto: Gosh. All right. On that note...
Jesse: We got some nice Georgia peaches, by the way, from the Georgia State Golf Association after that win.
Roberto: That's, that's not, I’m not over it. I’m not over it.
Dan: That day almost jeopardized my friendship with Roberto. I’ve got to say the level of haterade coming off of him and the easy material he gave to smash down was just too easy to pass up.
Roberto: Oh gosh, that was bad. It's bad.
Jesse: You had a BC quarterback too at the time. Didn't you?
Roberto: Still do, he’s still here. That's true. And he makes a million dollars a week for our two and 14. He's not the problem though. He's a big golfer. He's like a two handicap, by the way.
Jesse: I will say I’ve got to give Arthur Blank a lot of love. He's an incredible man. Yeah, I feel bad for that loss, but he's been a huge champion of what we do.
Roberto: Jesse, thanks a million for coming on. I think it'll give golfers a lot more clarity about people who, like you, are working hard every day to facilitate, grow and engage people in golf.
Jesse: Well, guys, I want to thank you. It's really been an enjoyable conversation. I appreciate the opportunity to kind of share under the hood of what we do. But it’s been a lot of fun being with you.
Dan: Thanks, Jesse. All the best.
Jesse: Thanks guys.
TAKEAWAYS
Roberto: Dan, interesting conversation with Jesse; back-to-back New England guests on the show. One of our hosts is from New England by way of Brazil. So I'm not sure you count, like Jesse counts, but really good combo. What jumped off the page at you?
Dan: I pay enough taxes to count, my goodness, thank you very much. But here we go. A really good conversation with Jesse. I think it was interesting to see this topic play out because it's not the business of golf in a dollars and cents way, but it's the business of golf in the orchestration, in the ecosystem, in the rules of engagement. And the whole fabric by which the business then takes place. So really good zooming out, so to speak, on the business of golf.
Roberto: Yeah. The governance of golf, right?
Dan: Yeah, the governance of golf.
Roberto: And the business of golf takes place under an umbrella, a set of rules and governance. Is that about right?
Dan: That's right. If there was a local board of directors for the game of golf, I think Jesse would be in one of those chairs.
Roberto: Yeah. So let me ask you this. We keep talking about the future of golf and how it looks very different than it looks now. Do you see Mass Golf's role needing to change in response to all these new ways of playing golf and new players in the game that might play screen golf? They might play TopGolf. Let's just call it “next gen golf.” We need to find some term for this because every episode we keep talking about how the future of golf is going to include that traditional “change your shoes in the locker room, join a country club,” but it will also have this whole let's call it “next gen golf.” Does Mass Golf have to evolve to bring those players under their umbrella?
Dan: Yes and no. I don't know if it has to evolve in terms of its remit and its overall sort of objective. One of the things that we talked about that I kind of see room for evolution in is making space for this group of golfers. Right? We talked about how they're learning it on par three courses. They're learning it maybe in a simulator. They’re learning it at TopGolf, not here because we don't have one, but they're learning it maybe when they go on a trip somewhere. But where are the people actually getting to play? Like you don't need a country club, but our public courses are all still out here. There's not a lot of room (land) to develop anywhere close to Boston at least. So I think about that (new) group, if it's going to keep playing, it needs some kind of home, some kind of venue to do it. And I don't see room for that right now.
Roberto: Yeah. It needs a home and then it needs... people are looking for a tribe. So I think right now they are, their tribe exists on Instagram and through social networks and personal networks as well. I think answering the question of how do we make Mass Golf feel like their tribe- next gen of golfers- would serve Jesse and Mass Golf well going forward.
Dan: I agree. I agree. And then we’ve got to see how they play out. Right? Does that generation convert into a quote unquote “traditional golfer?” Does it keep growing its own lane and never cross over?
Roberto: Good question.
Dan: I don't know. I think that ultimately will determine what the answer looks like. And I don't know if anyone's making bets on how that plays out. My bet is that it's going to be this whole other segment of golf that's playing in hoodies and jeans. Right? And doing things that way. And finding its own way of doing, that would be not in conflict with but very differently than the country club model. So if that's going to grow in parallel, then I think about what the home for that is.
Roberto: So let me ask you, do you think it's additive, do you think it's a bigger pie? Or does the pie get split up differently? And 20 years from now, there's a lot more next gen golfers and fewer traditional golfers. Do you think it's a zero sum or additive?
Dan: I think it's additive because for it not to be additive, for every sort of new age golfer you bring in, the only way it's zero sum is if you're turning off a traditional golfer away from the game. And I just don't see that happening. I could be wrong, but I just don't think... my hypothesis is that the numbers don't bear that out. Which is why I think there is room for both. I don't think there's a cannibalization effect going on, at least at the state level. How does it play out at the local country club? I don't know. There might be some of that conversation going on, but broadly speaking, it seems to be very additive.
Roberto: Yeah, I agree. I agree with that, but I'm also gonna put this out there to the world. You and I had talked about it briefly, but maybe if we put it out there, we'll hold ourselves accountable. I feel like we sit around and talk about what next gen golfers want. And we just pontificate on it. I want to get some of these folks on our show. We need to get their voices heard, because as much as you and I are...I'm a golf insider. I ran this idea by my brother and he said, you should talk to Tyler. Tyler, you know, joined this kind of smaller. So Tyler played division one college golf. Everyone I know is an insider. So we on The Course Record Show, we need to make it our charge to hear some different voices because you, Brian Ferris and I can talk about what next gen golfers want. But come on, it's not a good representation of that population. So let's do that.
Dan: Right. Sign us up. Let's go.
Dan: Now, let's switch over to talking about the role of a state golf association like Mass Golf. You were picking up on this- there are so many players in growing and ruling and overseeing the game, right? State golf associations, the IAGA, which I only learned about because of The Course Record Show, the USGA, all of this kind of stuff that's going on. And there's more. How do you think about this in the context of creating distinct swim lanes for each organization? It feels very blurry at the moment.
Roberto: Yeah. New England Association of Golf. There were tons. I was writing them down when we were talking to Jesse, but it's a good question. And I would be curious to know...the only ecosystem I know well enough is golf, and even these were unknown. A couple of those were unknown to me. Is this what baseball is like, is this what football is like? You don't really get a lot of adults that play football and a little bit of baseball. So I guess it's a very different thing, but does tennis have this many layers of bureaucracy?
Maybe it just speaks to the passion that people have for golf. I know some of those are trade associations and some of those are volunteer associations that, you know, like the USGA, all of these, there's a big volunteer part. So maybe they’re just over-bureaucratized because people are so willing to give their time to something that they love.
Dan: I think that's it. That has to be the way we got here because there is no business interest. I mean, these are all non-profits right? So there's not a great way to justify new market entry, using that language, to want to squeeze in some more profits and jump into a pretty profitable pool. And which is why I don't think it'll get rolled up because there is no...you mentioned private equity, making them a model out of this, and throwing debt and squeezing profits out of it. I just don't think that opportunity is there for the taking. Not that conceptually it wouldn't be helpful in some ways.
Roberto: But the profit motive is not there, you're saying.
Dan: Yeah, the dollars aren't there. So I don't see it. So I agree with Jesse that that's probably not in the future for golf. But to your point, how does everyone find their own way and then make their impact? It seems to be working; the game is doing well. But if you started the game of golf today and designed a system to rule it and to organize it, it probably wouldn't look the way it does now.
Roberto: What if somebody is just extremely power hungry, like who's going to be the Vladimir Putin of golf who just wants to dominate everything and live forever?
Dan: I don't know. It's not me, but is it you?
Roberto: I think, uh, no, it's not.
Alright, Dan, one thing I'm curious about. I want to hear about golf reopening in Massachusetts. I feel like there was a lot there. Jessie stayed out of the weeds for obviously good reasons, but give me your perspective, waking up in the morning, reading the newspaper during unprecedented COVID times, and I'm sure you were following the golf conversation closely.
Dan: Yeah. Jesse did allude to the fact that there would be a book or there could be a book based on everything that happened. And you know, I heard a lot of rumors, a lot of them are unconfirmed, so it was always hard to know what's true, what's not true. But some of the big...what's unique about Massachusetts is it's a very blue state by and large, but ruled by a Republican Governor and a Republican Lieutenant Governor. The Governor, Charlie Baker, is one of the most popular politicians in the country, despite this weird dichotomy in the state. But he happens to be very anti-golf is what people say. But the Lieutenant Governor, Karyn Polito, is very pro-golf. So my understanding is that she was very supportive of the reopening and helping folks find a creative outlet based on mental health and all these things and recreation, and helping other officials in the state make a case for reopening. But again, I don't know if that's true or not, but that's what I hear from behind the scenes, what at that level of government was going on.
What's strange is, what you will never hear- what makes it hard to confirm is- you will never hear Karyn Polito publicly talk about golf, right? Golf's a tough hill to die on politically, right? There's no way with the way the political landscape is shaped, it's a really tough place to garner votes and get a lot of public support. Which is why a lot of this is behind the scenes.
Roberto: Yeah, but what about the economic impact? Like Jesse was saying, there are tens of thousands of people in Massachusetts alone that work in the golf industry. So I get that’s not part of your stump speech and you're not singing from the rafters about golf, but why do you think the Governor...I'm curious about this: The Governor is a Republican in a heavily Democratic state. Do you feel like he's anti-golf because it's the last thing he wants to be seen as by the left of center electorate, like a fat cat guy and a pro rich people pro golf thing? Do you think that's why he's anti-golf?
Dan: I don't know the answer, but I'll offer an opinion. I think that would be a legitimate train of thinking because yes, you could point to economic impact from reopening golf and having all this going on again. I think people react too viscerally and they just think about shortcuts and stereotypes about golf and other things too that doesn't allow to even make the economic argument even come to the forefront. So I just think it's a hard hill to die on.
Roberto: Yeah, you're saying the photo opportunity in front of a perfectly manicured country club’s front steps isn't a good photo opportunity?
Dan: Yeah. That’s not gonna fly. So again, that's my analysis of it.
Roberto: Yeah. And to our loyal listeners that’s as much politics that you're going to get on The Course Record Show. So don't worry. That's it. We're done.
Dan: It's kind of funny. I took a class during my business school around the impact of strategic decision making in non-market environments. Non-market meaning working with the media, working with governments, working with NGOs, working with the court system. Fascinating. I came out of that totally with a new appreciation for the impact that those things have including a study that points to the ROI. If you don't lobby, you're being irresponsible to your shareholders based on ROI analysis.
So I found myself thinking back to those classes. It was really interesting to talk about how to do that. What tactics to choose. Do you go through the Senate to push something through and you go something more locally and you go challenge it in the courts? All of these decisions. And I never went into that field. I don't know enough about it to make a career out of it, but I know I learned enough in that class to have a very deep appreciation for these things. And in the time since I've graduated, which wasn't that long ago, the role of the corporation in the social sphere has only grown. So it's a very blurry line where you can't just say, oh, my goal is to drive shareholder value and that’s it.
Now you've got all these different agendas and different objectives when it comes to the social sphere that are hard to ignore. And this isn’t Jesse and the business of golf per se, but this is a very clear example where going into advocacy was good for business and the only choice. And now we see how it's played out very successfully in how the game's grown here in Massachusetts. And despite being the last state (to reopen after Covid).
Roberto: Good stuff. All right. That's it for us on The Course Record Show. See you next time.
